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Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#181

Post by ocdtrekkie »

caskance wrote: post #180
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having your privacy violated is not a feature, it's a form of extortion. Being violated is not the default state, they specifically added code to the product I pay for to do so. I should be able to disable or remove it. That's the core of Stallman's point. He's an extremist, but there's merit. If it's my software, I need to be able to turn parts of it off.

If you're going to bring up Stallman, it's very disingenuous to talk like Windows was ever at any point "your software" by his or the FSF's criteria.

As I pointed out, I view his attitude to some degree as extremist. But if I am going to pay $200 for a piece of software, I do rightfully expect to be able to configure how it works, and it not to include privacy abuse traps.

I understand that if you choose to use Google, you are paying for it with your privacy, which is why I avoid using it. But when I pay real money for a piece of software, it should not be violating my privacy anyways.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#182

Post by mahyarm »

KirinDave wrote: post #153
agentultra wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went the other way around. I started with your conclusions and have been migrating to the Apple ecosystem and am tempted to move to Windows. I had become tired of the dearth of issues that crop up to maintain an Arch desktop distribution. While the privacy collection issues should be addressed and be transparent to end-users I think open source is not the way to go for these devices. I'm tired of each device being…

Come move over to windows. I have. I'm not unhappy. 1. The Dev environment is basically superior to everyone else's now. 2. Microsoft is very open about the stats and rules they collect. Apple does many of the same things (don't believe me? Proxy your apple machine and use it for a day. Start typing in spotlight, too) and it's straightforward to disable them. 3. The hardware is nicer. Especially now that the rev0 bug…

I don't see how these are very windows specific advantages, especially if you doing something platform agnostic like mono or python.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#183

Post by magicalist »

Aleman360 wrote: post #99
lewisl9029 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offering the option to disable telemetry means Microsoft won't get telemetry data from the intersection of users who 1. don't just roll with the defaults for everything (many UX studies have shown that this applies to only a tiny percentage of users), and 2. care enough about privacy to want to turn telemetry off (this number is likely tiny relative to the overall Windows 10 userbase considering how great the adoptio…

Agreed that there should be a way to opt out, and I think there is on the install screen. Whether or not it's a complete kill switch probably depends on a particular definition of "telemetry," and in today's cloud connected world it's probably hard to draw a line. > many UX studies have shown that this applies to only a tiny percentage of users Ironic because that's exactly the kind of thing telemetry is excellent fo…

> Whether or not it's a complete kill switch probably depends on a particular definition of "telemetry," and in today's cloud connected world it's probably hard to draw a line.

Uh, no, it's really not.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#184

Post by stinkytaco »

ajross wrote: post #150
PuffinBlue wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you cite a single widely used software that doesn't have a FOSS alternative which works on Linux. Yes. Photoshop and Lightroom. And before you all jump in and slather me with suggestions of Darktable, Shotwell, GIMP, ASP, RAWtherapee et al please know that NONE of these are a true substitute for Lightroom and Photoshop. Individually you can put together a decent work flow with Linux programmes but it's slow. Pa…

> Individually you can put together a decent work flow with Linux programmes but it's slow So... you're saying that there are substitutes, but that they aren't as fast, you don't want to use them and that (getting back to the discussion) you don't view the privacy concerns with commercial OSes as sufficient incentive. If so, why not just say that and avoid all the pointless flamage.

Someone said "I switched to linux, it's great", someone else said "I'd like to, but it's missing some key features/workflows/whatever that I need". I really fail to see how that's "flamage". It's a Windows thread, after all, he/she didn't bring Linux into it.

Perhaps privacy isn't their exclusive value. I think that's also a perfectly valid argument in this discussion.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#185

Post by khedoros »

caskance wrote: post #143
lewisl9029 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean the Enterprise version? Last time I checked that wasn't something individual consumers can just go out and buy. But regardless of that, from Microsoft's perspective, does it make any sense to not offer the option to disable telemetry on all versions? From what I see, all it's doing is giving them bad publicity while driving potential users away to other platforms. And for what? Probably a few basis…

Both the enterprise and educational versions offer you full control. Consumer versions offer what I consider to be enough control, but obviously that's subjective. If you offer the option to disable telemetry, some people will disable it. If there is any pattern to which people do this, and we all know there is, it introduces sampling bias and casts aspersions on any conclusions you draw from that data.

It seems like they're trading one bias for another. I suspect that the population of users likely to disable telemetry have a lot in common with the population of users likely to just stick with Windows 7 and remove the updates that added telemetry collection.

Personally, I'd probably be satisfied if Microsoft gave me the tools to examine the telemetry that my computer wants to send. Not making that available to users makes me feel like they have something to hide.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#186

Post by magicalist »

caskance wrote: post #142
talmand wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please share what these options are and how to implement them. All I've seen so far are lists of hoops you have to go through that may eventually be changed back with a future update.

Your description is vaguely worded enough to cover every method of configuring software. If you want specific info, I think Microsoft's documentation is quite clear and comprehensive: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... Not sure why you need me to share that instead of taking five seconds to look it up on google. Guess you don't care as much about privacy as you like to pretend.

They were probably asking so that when you pointed the "options" out explicitly it would be clear that, no, in fact, they don't "offer those options" to the majority of Windows 10 users.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#187

Post by PuffinBlue »

ajross wrote: post #150
PuffinBlue wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you cite a single widely used software that doesn't have a FOSS alternative which works on Linux. Yes. Photoshop and Lightroom. And before you all jump in and slather me with suggestions of Darktable, Shotwell, GIMP, ASP, RAWtherapee et al please know that NONE of these are a true substitute for Lightroom and Photoshop. Individually you can put together a decent work flow with Linux programmes but it's slow. Pa…

> Individually you can put together a decent work flow with Linux programmes but it's slow So... you're saying that there are substitutes, but that they aren't as fast, you don't want to use them and that (getting back to the discussion) you don't view the privacy concerns with commercial OSes as sufficient incentive. If so, why not just say that and avoid all the pointless flamage.

Nope, I actually said those (predominantly) Linux programmes are not substitutes - it's right there in the comment.

I'm not hating on Linux, I have just used it totally as my daily driver for the last year, I prefer it and would go back to it as I said but I actually need the speed and quality that Lightroom and Photoshop afford.

They cannot currently be replicated by FOSS alternatives unfortunately.

Partly I think the UNIX philosophy gets in the way slightly, as Lightroom offers both catalogue, RAW development, printing, book creating and galleries in one place. This is important as when you manage multi terrabyte catalogues and hundreds of thousands of photos, having a single tool to keep track of everything is a real speed boost.

There are some pretty awesome options in Darktable and RawTherapee but it takes longer to get to the same place as Lightroom and neither tool offered the same ease of noise control.

GIMP on the other hand isn't Photoshop, doesn't aspire to be and is no substitute for the full power Photoshop gives you. It's just got non-destructive layers in the latest release hasn't it? Maybe it'll start to be a bit more of a contender if that's in place now.

I wish Adobe would just bite the bullet and release on Linux, there are tens of thousands of votes/comments for it on the various forum and feedback sites calling for it stretching back probably 10 years.

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#189

Post by caskance »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #181
caskance wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to bring up Stallman, it's very disingenuous to talk like Windows was ever at any point "your software" by his or the FSF's criteria.

As I pointed out, I view his attitude to some degree as extremist. But if I am going to pay $200 for a piece of software, I do rightfully expect to be able to configure how it works, and it not to include privacy abuse traps. I understand that if you choose to use Google, you are paying for it with your privacy, which is why I avoid using it. But when I pay real money for a piece of software, it should not be violati…

You can "configure how the software works" to some extent even if you only get the free version. As a rule, more expensive licenses give you more features. If you don't think windows 10 pro is a good enough value, that's fine. But characterizing it as some kind of immoral violation of your rights makes me not take you seriously.

I use VS Pro and wish it had the testing tools that Enterprise did. Not enough to pay that much, though. Should I be mad about a violation of my right to IDE test suite integration?

Re: Microsoft reveals details of Windows 10 usage tracking

#190

Post by caskance »

magicalist wrote: post #186
caskance wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description is vaguely worded enough to cover every method of configuring software. If you want specific info, I think Microsoft's documentation is quite clear and comprehensive: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85... Not sure why you need me to share that instead of taking five seconds to look it up on google. Guess you don't care as much about privacy as you like to pretend.

They were probably asking so that when you pointed the "options" out explicitly it would be clear that, no, in fact, they don't "offer those options" to the majority of Windows 10 users.

It also makes it clear that they do have quite a few options and the reason they don't have the rest is because they don't pay for them.
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