Live data from Hacker News

Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

robindoherty.com

211–220 of 329 posts

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#211
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because nobody, as far as I know, has brought together the issues of knowledge and control yet. In short, my argument goes something like this: 1) It is possible to manipulate or influence people. This extends to their memories, perceptions, emotions, actions, even complex beliefs. And it can be more or less direct. Humans think of themselves as special snowflakes, but we are actually quite simple. 2) The degree to w…

> I should finally write that essay that I've been meaning to for the longest time. No need. Orwell already wrote it. I just don't get why you think you are alone.

> I just don't get why you think you are alone.

I would hope I'm not but it sure feels that way.

Maybe I'm not reading the right stuff or talking to the wrong people.

Can you point me to some (contemporary) arguments along the line I propose?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#212

"This affects all of us. We must care." is not an effective way of convincing someone. I personally do not care about privacy. I see no reason why I should. It's just my opinion. I know other people do but please don't generalize.

You don't care about your own privacy, but do you care about anyone else's privacy? If someone you care about deeply tells you that they value their privacy and they want to keep it, does that matter to you?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#214
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences." No, we don't. We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of non- engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their website…

You're really low-balling. Work in the greater D.C. area. Within a 150-200 mile radius, there are literally tens of thousands of developers working directly on surveillance. Probably even more. How do I know this? From random sampling. Go to any tech event, talk to any program manager at any government contractor. The work and money is in surveillance. And, that's just government surveillance. All that tech is then s…

I fear that those new laws would target classes. "No surveillance of elected federal officials." "No surveillance of government contracting corporate executives."

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But don't discount people that legitimately disagree with you as being irresponsible. Why not? You may disagree, that doesn't mean you can't be flat-out wrong. Having an opinion does not automatically give that opinion equal weight when history has proven to us again and again that that particular opinion ends up with making society either dangerous or at a minimum uncomfortable. I'm sure there were border guards i…

The problem with drawing historical parallels is that they never apply exactly. Saying "A thing happened in the past" can be instructive, especially to people who didn't even realize that the thing was possible. But what's much more practically useful is to say "I think what happened before will happen again in the current context and for these reasons ". An example from the past is only useful if it can be tangibly…

Let me ask you one question: What would be circumstances that would change your mind? As in: What would need to happen to make you think that surveillance is going to far?

So far, it seems pretty much like your belief that surveillance is not a problem for you is unfalsifiable, that you will believe that it is a problem for you only when the secret police is actually coming for you or maybe your family.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#216
post #171
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

"Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences." No, we don't. We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of non- engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their website…

Every time one of millions of developers commits code to a centralized service, they have a hand in exposing individual's data to the surveillance society we live in today. Data exposure can come from being publicly available on the site itself, being obfuscated through aggregation in the service's APIs, leaked through security holes in implementation of said services, risk of theft by hackers looking for high value targets with private data, or misappropriated by the company itself or its upstream providers. The idea that customers can somehow understand the scope of their exposure to privacy violations is laughable.

One thing which became apparent to me when I began to focus on this issue was the fact there are countless other services which provide services to other services, all of which have some degree of access to upstream customer data. For example, if you log to a hosted logging service, some of your customer's data is sent to them. If that service use AWS, then data is sent to Amazon. And so on.

http://www.stackgeek.com/blog/kordless/post/a-code-of-trust

Arguing efforts to make things better is pointless is a very dangerous thing to do, assuming we actually want things to be better. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force, especially when there are startups to be built!

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#217
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences." No, we don't. We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of non- engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their website…

You're really low-balling. Work in the greater D.C. area. Within a 150-200 mile radius, there are literally tens of thousands of developers working directly on surveillance. Probably even more. How do I know this? From random sampling. Go to any tech event, talk to any program manager at any government contractor. The work and money is in surveillance. And, that's just government surveillance. All that tech is then s…

I don't know what dreamland you live in, but everyone knows what happened during the 2008 meltdown what laws have been created?

Everyone knows how the invasion of Iraq was a complete mistake. Has someone gone to jail?

The public is not going to shutdown anything they are wholly complicit in and benefit from. Which is why empires eventually fall.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#218
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethics, constraints or consequences." No, we don't. We have probably a few hundred doing hard-core surveillance. We have another few thousand functioning as enablers by making social media and ad networks really attractive. We have a whole lot of non- engineers insisting on placing ads and tracking on their website…

You're really low-balling. Work in the greater D.C. area. Within a 150-200 mile radius, there are literally tens of thousands of developers working directly on surveillance. Probably even more. How do I know this? From random sampling. Go to any tech event, talk to any program manager at any government contractor. The work and money is in surveillance. And, that's just government surveillance. All that tech is then s…

> The solution: Use all of this surveillance tech and data to expose all of the VIPs. Publicly post where they are and where they've been, who they've been with, what they read, and what they buy. You do this and laws will be created pretty quickly.

This has happened in the past and the reaction from the individual people has been to 180 completely on their opinion of surveillance (there was a recent post with sources, but I don't have it handy). This could work.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#219
post #76
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Doctors have classes that teach them ethics early on in school/training because the vast majority of professional doctors agree on what is ethical. On the other hand, you can't even get many university professors to agree that something like collecting metadata is unethical. The idea that we could get the majority of the industry to agree on ethics is pretty far-fetched when a large portion think surveillance is maki…

I have found that as an individual software worker, with no union or professional association with the muscle to back me up, any ethical objections I may have are meaningless, as the only thing I can do to object is lose all my household income and be replaced by someone more pliant.

For instance, I find a user control that prevents the user from changing focus whenever the input is invalid to be unethical, or at least severely impolite. It's the equivalent of grabbing someone's face while you're talking to them. Me: "The control you propose is hostile to the user." Customer: "Do it the way we want, or your company loses the contract."

As it turns out, the customer would love to grab someone's face, not just while they talk, but also as they yell, with a light rain of spittle falling gently onto the target's visage. That's because they assume everyone is a complete idiot, whose only salvation is absolute obedience to those officially certified as more capable. They fervently believe that you can order someone to not make mistakes. So it should be no surprise that my ethical objection was meaningless to them.

The people paying for software and hardware enabling Panopticon-style universal surveillance have a completely alien system of ethics, and more than enough money to ignore your personal morality. There will always be someone around in desperate enough financial straits that they will quash their own opinions and take the paycheck.

A cartel enforcer for software workers is the only way to significantly slow down technologies (you can't actually stop progress) that the majority of those workers find to be unethical. That enforcer has to be able to tell its members that they cannot do such work, no matter how well it pays, because otherwise, the buyers, for whom budget size is no obstacle, simply pay the higher price to those who need cash now more than self-respect later.

As long as there are mouths to feed and rent to be paid, the guy with deep pockets will be able to pay another to do his dirty work.

It isn't the ethical training that makes the difference in medicine, but the ethical enforcement. Doctors and lawyers can be decertified by their peers and elders, such that they cannot be rehired as a member of that profession. That means that an employer cannot demand unethical behavior, unless it is willing to compensate to the tune of all the money those people could theoretically make over all the remaining years of their careers.

I would hope that enough software workers could agree that it is unethical to casually collect and retain information from anyone without their fully informed consent, which is diligently confirmed, and revocable on demand. I further hope that we could agree that it is unethical to gather information to support any criminal investigation without reasonable suspicion that the target has actually committed a crime. Those people who believe that adding more hay to the stack makes the needles easier to find can form their own cartel.

I happen to believe that ethically-limited surveillance is more efficient and effective than the heavy-handed dragnet approach. I also think it is unethical to use an O(N^3) brute-force algorithm when an O(N log N) alternative is available. But most customers only care whether something works, and is delivered on time and under budget. They won't ever care about our opinions regarding quality, ethics, or best practices until after we are capable of making them pay dearly for not caring.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed an important bit in your translation. "We do not know how to determine how the technology fetish in individual people leads to the point at which a rational relationship changes into one of over-valuing, which eventually leads to someone designing a train system to get the victims as fast and smooth as possible to their destination in Auschwitz, but who forgets what it is that happens to them once…

This is a good time to remind readers of this Upton Sinclair quote, too: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it".

Well, I actually feel it concerns much more than simply money. The avant-garde - be it technological, artistic or intellectual - has always shown a tendency to join forces with the darkest of regimes during the early stages.
Post reply on HN