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Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

robindoherty.com

111–120 of 329 posts

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#111
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really curious what you think evil is since you keep capitalizing and speaking of it as some spiritual essence that can be eradicated. You have not established the slightest bit of an operational definition, and resort to pathologizing neutral transmission channels as hosts of "Evil". This is a complete non-starter and not worthwhile to deliberate. "Evil uses Tor" is as useful as "Evil uses paper".

Maybe not worthwhile for you, but there's a set of people out there who all agree on what Evil actually is (generally, obviously it's difficult to be exact), and we'd like to try and figure out how to limit its ability to act, while maintaining the shield of protection for the persecuted.

Many groups agree within themselves. But they disagree with other groups. Who can judge which group it right? What are the odds that it happens to be the group you're in, not all the others that previous generations were in or people in other cultures are in.

Quick test - is looking at a photo of a naked child evil?

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#112
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Not everyone agrees with you that the tech sector is contributing to the building of a surveillance society or police state. There are a lot of people who have carefully considered the issue and come to the conclusion that facebook knowing what posts you liked or ad networks knowing which pages your IP address has visited is not a Bad Thing. It's clear that you don't agree and all debate is welcome, but I caution you…

Your whole post is written in bad faith and frankly revolting.

Which sector is building startup after startup for data mining, tracking, building profiles? This in addition to the already established companies. Then you're trying to downplay the issue to trivial actions such Facebook likes or tracking of IP addresses, a toy version of the state of the art. Finally, the sarcasm, showing how reasonable you are and putting the OP in a bad light for not being "more understanding".

It's quite simple: the topic of privacy is central to a free society and it's enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In the past, we have seen a rich history of abuses, lies and deceit from huge organizations with massive resources at their disposal. Private or not.

The majority of people go on with their lives without caring, as long as they have their basic needs met. The very few that take a stand, pay the price. Otherwise, some criticism of the behavior of these organizations can be found online, but not much because of:

1) Chilling effects. Funny how I had to think before posting this message, living comfortably in a democratic country, with freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

2) "Helpful people", quick to jump to the defense of said organizations, explaining away abuses, making up excuses, muddying the waters, asking for fairness and understanding their point of view.

So thanks for keeping the balance karmacondon. They might have mountains of money, lawyers, shills, PR people and most resources imaginable really, BUT we wouldn't want to unfairly hurt their feelings. I do apologize for that.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#113
post #83

Whenever I read one of these articles I am wondering why the examples of WHY mass surveillance affects ME as average Joe negatively have to be so weak / contrived: For example, imagine someone convinced by the argument "nothing to hide nothing to fear". Would this example convince them that in fact they do have to fear something? "You might think twice about contacting or meeting people (exercising your freedom of as…

Because nobody, as far as I know, has brought together the issues of knowledge and control yet.

In short, my argument goes something like this:

1) It is possible to manipulate or influence people. This extends to their memories, perceptions, emotions, actions, even complex beliefs. And it can be more or less direct. Humans think of themselves as special snowflakes, but we are actually quite simple.

2) The degree to which one can manipulate or influence other people depends on

___a) the effort and intelligence one expends on it,

___b) the degree to which one has knowledge about the target, and on

___c) how close one is to the target (i.e. are you "under their skin", in their house, or 10 km away; what are your intervention options).

3) As social animals, we have always been subject to the influence of other people. Usually, this influence has been local, fuzzy, costly, relatively obvious to the target and "controllable" (in the sense that knowledge about target was strongly negatively correlated to (generalized) distance; if target became suspicious of you, target could simply cut you off or increase distance).

4) Technology and science currently change the rules of the game, and in profound, basic ways:

___a) We learn more and more about how to influence people, both by physical means (regulating temperature, lighting or noise conditions; psychotropic substances or, you know, food; changing the color of a button or playing with the timeline of events; etc.) and psychological means (e.g. using the right words or framing to elicit a certain response or evoke a certain emotion; exploiting properties of the social graph; etc.). This knowledge is, of course, still very imperfect but it is also cumulative.

___b) More and more of our interaction with the external or social world becomes mediated by technology ⇒ the options to intervene in the life of someone multiply as technology becomes a more integral part of life. As a result, it becomes very cheap to make targeted interventions in someone's life. Example: Today, ranking of search results or filtering of news; tomorrow, entire articles machine-written for you (personally). Automated homes. The mind boggles with the possibilities of augmented reality and/or immersive experiences. Farther out: Optogenetics.

___c) Deep and very detailed information about people can be collected in real-time and stored cheaply (no memory decay). The more ingrained the tech, the more detailed the data. For example, real-time monitoring of blood sugar and, in the future, perhaps even stress hormone levels.

___d) Physical distance becomes meaningless.

5) Due to the tendency towards natural monopolies in the sector, all this information and power accrues in very few hands ⇒ strong and unprecented centralization of both fine-grained knowledge about individuals as well as the means to intervene in their world without regard to distance or cost.

It is not hard to see that, to indulge in some hyperbole, "mind control" of a large population undermines traditional means of checking power. Who cares about elections if I can control whom people like? Why bother with competitive markets if I can make people want whatever I have to give (and make them pay reservation prices)? No more need for violent suppression of dissent because I can detect and change inconvenient ideas surgically.

To be clear, I am not saying we are already living in a mind-controlled society.

What I am saying is that collecting data (or rather letting someone collect data) about us is an integral part of this scenario. If data became more compartmentalized and limited, say, this whole thing wouldn't work (or be far less effective).

In fact, because technology and science progress anyway, how we handle our data may be the only way we can influence the course of events in this respect.

At least to my mind, this is the real issue of privacy. Alas, I seem to be alone so far. It's really hard to see for me why this is not totally obvious to everybody. I should finally write that essay that I've been meaning to for the longest time. Then someone can at least attack my argument. Sometimes, in your weaker moments, that nobody seems to see what you see can make you question your own sanity...

_______________________

PS: I am also not claiming that Larry Page or Mark Zuckerberg are rubbing their hands gleefully ("hihihi") at the prospect of world domination. I think concrete persons are incidental to this scenario. Heck, the one who ends up controlling, in this scenario, might not even be human. It just doesn't matter who. If it is technologically possible, it will be done. Loss or neglect of privacy makes it possible.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#114
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

> We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work.

Yes, I believe we should have an "Hippocratic Oath" ([1]) for technology workers.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#115
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But evil uses paper is probably going to do less harm than evil uses Tor or a gun or a nuke. Societal control must adapt to the medium on a regularly adjusting basis depending on the perceived level of evil.

Do not underestimate the power of paper. Because with the right amount of legal framework (on paper) I can evict people from their houses, sell these of for a nice profit and not have to care for the fate of said people. I could rob whole countries of their future (say Greece) with paper treaties. I can rob people of most of their democratic power (see lots of tries at treaties like TTIP or some things like this). Al…

The issue here is more or less. A kitchen knife is bound to cause less casualty than a machine gun in the hand of a psycho, hence we require licenses for gun. It's not to eliminate death through violence, it's to reduce and deter it. We don't want people to reach for the nearest machine gun whenever they have a domestic quarrel (obviously we don't want people to reach for a knife either, but I hope you get my point) or when their neighbor's dog poops in their yard.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#116
post #83

Whenever I read one of these articles I am wondering why the examples of WHY mass surveillance affects ME as average Joe negatively have to be so weak / contrived: For example, imagine someone convinced by the argument "nothing to hide nothing to fear". Would this example convince them that in fact they do have to fear something? "You might think twice about contacting or meeting people (exercising your freedom of as…

I'm reminded of an article from last year which is only tangentially related, but it has a perspective I think could be used to explain the severity to average Joes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/magazine/the-loser-edit-th...

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#117
I forget why now, but I was reading this article[0] by Moxie Marlinspike, from 2013, just a few days ago.

Interesting how the same argument can take so long to take hold, and how long some truths need to be told before they gain the traction needed to make a change.

0: http://www.wired.com/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-is-t...

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#118
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

Not everyone agrees with you that the tech sector is contributing to the building of a surveillance society or police state. There are a lot of people who have carefully considered the issue and come to the conclusion that facebook knowing what posts you liked or ad networks knowing which pages your IP address has visited is not a Bad Thing. It's clear that you don't agree and all debate is welcome, but I caution you…

> But don't discount people that legitimately disagree with you as being irresponsible.

Why not? You may disagree, that doesn't mean you can't be flat-out wrong. Having an opinion does not automatically give that opinion equal weight when history has proven to us again and again that that particular opinion ends up with making society either dangerous or at a minimum uncomfortable.

I'm sure there were border guards in former East Germany that were entirely convinced that their state was the greatest and that's why they had to keep people in at all costs, including shooting them if they persisted in believing otherwise and tried to simply leave. After all, that was best for them. But that particular opinion turned out to be very wrong in the long term.

People can rationalize the most absurd stuff to themselves and to others, especially when their pay-check depends on it, but that's not a requirement.

All those that try to pretend that there is some kind of 'reasonable disagreement' possible about the erosion of privacy and that directly and indirectly help to rush in the surveillance state have quite possibly not thought as carefully and have not considered these things with the degree of gravity required as they claim they have. Having a mortgage to pay may factor in there somewhere too.

Usually this is a combination of being too young, too optimistic and in general living too sheltered a life to know what can happen to you, your family and your friends when the tide turns. And the tide always turns, nothing is forever.

> Simply, I and many others do not believe that any western government is going to use information gathered by tech companies to preempt threats to entrenched interests and the status quo.

I hope you're right but history is not on your side in this case.

> I've seen the same arguments made here for years, and none of it is convincing.

Yes, it isn't going to convince you any more than that border guard would be convinced that his job is a net negative to society. Every stream, no matter how reprehensible will always have its fans and cheerleaders. And later on they will never remember that they had agency all along and were perfectly capable of making a different decision. Responsibility is weird that way.

> It's admirable that you are so certain in your beliefs.

It is not admirable that you are so certain in yours. May I suggest a couple of talks with some holocaust survivors to get a better feel for what the true power of information can get you?

Or maybe the family members of some people that were killed while trying to flee the former SovBlock?

Or maybe some first generation immigrants to the US or Canada or wherever you live to give you some eye witness accounts on what it was like to live in those countries before the wall fell down?

'It can't happen here' is an extremely naive point of view.

http://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide

Agreed with your advocacy advice.

> The least you could do is to try to understand ours.

That's 'mine' not 'ours', you speak for yourself.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#119
post #64

I think the tech crowd is in denial about their role in surveillance. We expect professionals to behave ethically. Doctors and companies working on genetics and cloning for instance are expected to behave ethically and have constraints placed on their work. And with consequences for those behaving unethically. Yet we have millions of software engineers working on building a surveillance society with no sense of ethic…

I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to see more active ostracisation against software developers that have worked for organisations like the NSA and GCHQ. If we can make it a career ending job, it will dramatically reduce their ability to recruit. However, I'd also like to see general software development think more closely about the role it has in normalising these things. Next time you start to create an account system…

But...

NSA, GCHQ, BSI/BND, etc. aren't the "bad guy" in theory.

It's within a nation's interest to, within the extent of law and respect for human rights, try as thoroughly has it can to know what's going on in the world. Electronic intelligence is part of that, and a growing part.

In practice, the permissive reactions many/most/all governments have to allegations (or proof) that a comms intel agency has broken the law, that's what the trouble is. That these groups have been allowed to break the law or ghostwrite laws that allow them to violate what would generally not be approved by a citizenry, that needs to be addressed.

I'm not sure how ruining the careers of software developers and computer scientists who've worked for these organizations does anything other than remove from circulation some brilliant members of our community.

Ostracize the middle managers, bureaucrats, politicians that allow the trampling of our rights.

But don't arrest the guy designing the home theater system for El Chapo's vacation house and tell me you've taken down the Mexican drug cartel.

Re: Why privacy is important, and having “nothing to hide” is irrelevant

#120
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone agrees with you that the tech sector is contributing to the building of a surveillance society or police state. There are a lot of people who have carefully considered the issue and come to the conclusion that facebook knowing what posts you liked or ad networks knowing which pages your IP address has visited is not a Bad Thing. It's clear that you don't agree and all debate is welcome, but I caution you…

Your whole post is written in bad faith and frankly revolting. Which sector is building startup after startup for data mining, tracking, building profiles? This in addition to the already established companies. Then you're trying to downplay the issue to trivial actions such Facebook likes or tracking of IP addresses, a toy version of the state of the art. Finally, the sarcasm, showing how reasonable you are and putt…

> Which sector is building startup after startup for data mining, tracking, building profiles?

You talk about it like it's necessarily a bad thing, by default, for everyone. Why?

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