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Working fewer hours would make us more productive

theguardian.com

201–210 of 253 posts

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal evidence, I used to to that as a CSR at PayPal years ago. After a "normal" day of height hours of calls or emails you had two more hours of emails. My brain was fried and I was glad when the policy was canceled. I loved the extra day though (which was Monday or Wednesday) and as a software engineer I would love to pull it off, to rest or work on my own thing, but I would gladly take a pay cut than work 10 h…

>Anecdotal evidence, I used to to that as a CSR What does CSR stand for?

It likely stands for Customer Service Representative.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#202

I signed up for a gym that apparently went on an initiative to improve its employee culture. The gym is really nice, not as good as Equinox in Palo Alto, but close enough. So one of the initiatives was to close the gym during holiday seasons so that staff could enjoy vacations schedules just like everyone else. Lo and behold, they closed the gym between December 20 and January 5th. Just when I was planning to catch u…

One irony here is that of the two gyms I belong to, the cheap one has longer hours on holidays and Fridays.

I originally added the cheap one because it's just 4 minutes from my house, ruining my ability to flake out on the basis that "I don't have time to do X before they close".

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#203
post #5

The article makes the fundamental error of assuming that if you worked ten hours less, someone else would get to work ten hours more. But other than that, it's a pretty good article grounded in actual fact.

Right. That 35 hour workweek in France has resulted in higher unemployment not lower.

Correlation isn't causation.

Somebody needs to check the parallel-universe France that has a longer workweek and check its unemployment rate.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#204
As would getting rid of open floor plan workspaces, or, even better, working from home.

How long until people figure out that business folks really sincerely do not care about productivity? If it would require them to alter their traditional ideas of what the workplace should be like (derived from labor-intensive manufacturing in the first part of the 20th century), the psychological cost is one they are not willing or able to incur.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#205

I recently read an interesting book called Looking Backward, by Edward Bellamy. It was written in 1887 but could have been written yesterday. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Backward It was basically about a guy who accidentally travels forward in time (sort of like idiocracy) except he finds himself in an American Socialist Utopia. It was a really good book in general but there was one idea in particular that…

Humans have incredible propensity to acclimatize to the environment. That's the only reasoning I could arrive at when I was poor and saw people around willing to do the most mundane back breaking work than to seek other forms of employment. The lever that is used in society today is desperation as opposed to higher pay per hr in the "Looking Backward" case. The sanitation worker doesn't enjoy their work and no amount…

I think it is very important not to forget another factor - the Protestant Work Ethic. This had a gigantic influence on US culture and we still live with it today. It is the reason people reflexively object to McDonald's workers fighting for higher pay, and don't care that those workers are earning far more for their employer than they are being paid. The Protestant Work Ethic is the belief that the work itself, specifically the suffering endured while performing the work, which is of value. 'Hard work is its own reward'. It is a big part of why the improvements in productivity that came about in the 1980s due to computers and automation technology entering the workplace did not result in higher wages. Because the productivity was not a product of greater human suffering, the people did not 'deserve' any greater pay. The most virtuous are those who struggle and suffer the greatest for the lowest pay. They are paid primarily in the most valuable currency, the suffering, and to suggest that they deserve greater pay or to give them greater pay would denigrate them. Obviously this is not a viewpoint that most people would or can describe specifically. But it is what underlies the prevailing attitudes most people have about work.

To desire easy work, is immoral or weak. To desire high pay for a job which is not tremendously taxing, is immoral or weak. A person who is not working strenuously is inherently a worse person than one who is. It's why the unemployed are looked down upon, and why the working poor, no matter how exploited they might be, are revered as the 'salt of the earth' and the like. It is why it is presumed that a person who is not doing hard physical work is not "really working".

Mental work is of such a fundamentally different character from physical labor that our society simply doesn't know how to process it. The idea that a person, with the use of technology, can produce as much value as 100 people doing the same job manually seems a dirty kind of trick. Dirty either because the person is cheating and skirting the virtuous hard work, or dirty because being willing to accept such a situation is immoral. Wanting a job you love to do, and expecting to be paid well for it, is a fantasy tolerable only in children. To actually expect it is one of the biggest reasons older people say that Millenials seem "entitled" brats. In truth, the Millenials just seem to inherently understand that we're at the point where technology simply makes it the best (for everyone, employers included) course.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#206

I changed my working arrangement to 80% recently, so now I work four 8-hour day weeks. I wholeheartedly recommend it if you can make it work. I have wednesday off, so the week is divided into two-day stretches. Not sure if I'm any more productive (maybe), but I'm a lot happier. I suspect some coworkers are going to follow my lead, now that the precedent has been set.

Did your salary also drop to 80%? Did other benefits which legally require a 'full time' schedule go away?

The worst possible scenario would be workers switching to shorter work weeks, accepting pay cuts and loss of benefits, and proceeding to be more productive for their employer. I mean, unscrupulous employers would love it, but for society it would be terrible.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anecdotal evidence, I used to to that as a CSR What does CSR stand for?

It likely stands for Customer Service Representative.

Yes. Maybe it's not as well known as an acronym in English as I thought.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#208
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

If I care about what I do - I will do it anyways. I don't need to be an employee and go to work, just to be allowed to do what I already want and am doing. Does this make sense to you? In the end I'm pursuing employment to get paid, you know, and there are only degrees of alignment between a person's current aspirations and the stuff you're going to be paid for. So, what people are trying to argue here is the balance between the time you are required to sacrifice in order to earn enough for a half-decent living and the free-will time in which your actions are motivated otherwise. Like you once said - it's nice to be in a position where people can't exert leverage on you. There certainly is a social and political push to this balance towards devoting yourself more to the company's agenda.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#209
post #101

I worked at 50% capacity for some years. It was just great until I chose to want more money for the time being and returned to 70% capacity. That was just great, too, until I realized that I was as productive as a full-time guy without the full-time pay so I eventually went back full-time but trying to keep my output roughly on the same level as I had been getting good reviews all the time. However, last year I got t…

This sounds amazing and I'm happy you've found a solution that works for you. Unfortunately in my experience this scenario is basically impossible for 98% of people in the US - I assume when you say 'my country' that you are not from the US?

I work in Europe but I'm actually employed by a very much US company. Practically my whole team is in the USA and other than receiving salary locally I have surprisingly little to do with the European subsidiary. I also work from home a lot because working at the office would be effectively telecommuting, too. Decisions such as my unpaid time off come from the US.

My employer is not a particularly conservative company and it helps that my boss is great and if he has to cross-check something with his boss, his boss is great too. And it probably helps to have a somewhat senior position (next milestone: ten years) and having made my mark years ago.

But most importantly: getting your shit done. If you can get your shit done you're in a much better position in getting everyone to agree on more flexibility into your job because companies need to get shit done.

Wise employers recognize that it's of everyone's benefit, including theirs, to keep productive employees in a loose leash with more freedom of choice rather than impose binary requirements on how and when to do the work. If my employer wasn't wise like this some other company would be enjoying the fruits of my productivity as I would've left them years ago.

Even if you work at the very best companies and love your work, work is still always work and it will at some point become too much, meaningless, source of frustration, or any combination of those.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#210
post #150
post #101

I worked at 50% capacity for some years. It was just great until I chose to want more money for the time being and returned to 70% capacity. That was just great, too, until I realized that I was as productive as a full-time guy without the full-time pay so I eventually went back full-time but trying to keep my output roughly on the same level as I had been getting good reviews all the time. However, last year I got t…

Yes! This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while as well; I've been sort of badly approximating it by saving up money and taking a while off between jobs.

Next time you're negotiating a salary and they aren't willing to match what you want, don't walk away yet but offer to take the salary with reduced hours in proportion to how much you're missing. Taking an exaggerated example: if you want 150K and they're only willing to pay 100K, suggest to take 100K with 2/3 of the hours. You have nothing to lose but potentially lots to gain.
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