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Working fewer hours would make us more productive

theguardian.com

181–190 of 253 posts

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#181
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The better deal would be working four ten-hour days. Particularly if you have a long commute, this is wildly better than five eights. Eight hours isn't really enough time to get anything done, particularly during business hours.

Anecdotal evidence, I used to to that as a CSR at PayPal years ago. After a "normal" day of height hours of calls or emails you had two more hours of emails. My brain was fried and I was glad when the policy was canceled. I loved the extra day though (which was Monday or Wednesday) and as a software engineer I would love to pull it off, to rest or work on my own thing, but I would gladly take a pay cut than work 10 h…

>Anecdotal evidence, I used to to that as a CSR

What does CSR stand for?

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#183
post #31

I changed my working arrangement to 80% recently, so now I work four 8-hour day weeks. I wholeheartedly recommend it if you can make it work. I have wednesday off, so the week is divided into two-day stretches. Not sure if I'm any more productive (maybe), but I'm a lot happier. I suspect some coworkers are going to follow my lead, now that the precedent has been set.

I don't think your plan is for everyone since if you need to be synced with a team not working on Wednesdays is negative in the long run.

That's why everyone works seven days a week.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#184
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

You're pretty much right here, but it's important to be clear that the article does not suggest restricting working hours, it suggests changing the norm in an unspecified way. Granted, in Britain this has always been done with restrictive laws. The norm used to be for 9 year olds to work in factories for 15 hours a day. This was changed progressively to reduce to a norm of 40 hours a week for adult males only, and then has included adult females and slowly been rising since.

There are ways other than just saying that people can't work more than 35 hours a week. You can require overtime loading, you can change bargaining laws, you can change the employment conditions of people employed directly by the government. This doesn't impinge on anyones freedom more than current laws (i.e minimum wage, health and safetly, child labour, non-discrimination)

It's also important to remember that the having "some tactical discretion", and "being aligned with their job’s goals" in your job is rare. Most people dislike their jobs and most jobs are pretty pointless. There's an equality issue here that isn't the one you're thinking about: more access to meaningful work? If there's only so many hours of meaningful paid work to be done, wouldn't it be better to sacrifice a bit of efficiency to have as many people as possible doing a smaller amount of this work?

It is really important to not confuse individual with collective reasoning. It's pretty clear from the article that it doesn't apply to all cases. (And from what I've heard, you're a famously extreme outlier here) Yes, there will be negative consequences to any change, but you don't make society wide changes by looking at outliers.

@ddouglascarr

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#185
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

Most devs can't switch what they're working on: They're on a sprint plan that's estimated to 1/2 day (at least) precision, and checked-on every day at scrum.

Not saying your general point is wrong, but it's not what being an engineer is like for most people today. (BTW, fixing the way work is managed would probably do a lot for both people and firms.)

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#186
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you manage these? I'm most productive that way too. But the trouble is I'll keep going longer than I should, and then I just get tired and unproductive and not sensible enough to rest. Are there signs you look for to leave it on a high note, or do you use hard time limits?

Kindof related - one famus writer had a habit of always ending his work day mid-paragraph and mid-semtence. That way he had an easy start next day. Perhaps it's also a good method to work as a programmer? Don't fight to close that ticket before the end of the day?

My old colleage Mike Rowe wisely said "Always leave it compiling". That way you could go home thinking, that was probably the right fix. Then the next day you could go in and see that it wasn't, and pick up where you left off.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should respect other people's time off if we want others to respect our time off. Is it really so hard to find some other way to exercise for a month?

Why not close supermarkets out of respect for labor unions as well, for 2 weeks. I think the solution lies somewhere else - such as automating humans out of retail and services to the extent possible. For instance, speaking of gym, I would keep the facility open staffed just with with security and reception. Shut down non-core functions: new member office, group sessions, cafe etc.

automating people out of work is definitely 'a' solution.

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#188
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

As you do have a reputation for getting quite a lot done, it would be cool if you'd share a little bit more on how you make long hours productive and manage to maintain focus (or maybe you've written about it elsewhere?).

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#189
post #143

I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.

I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…

Hi John,

As with everything on the internet, this article and action that's making waves around the internet is an oversimplification on what is a really complex problem with a lot of factors and variables.

Your example with a factory worker is great example for that specific type of work, an assembly line, but much like the mentality of "lets work 6 hours instead of 8" craze that's going on it would only apply and benefit a specific type of employee - the average uninterested employee. This is guy/gal is a programmer, accountant, secretary, QA tester whatever that is good enough at what he does to get by and even promote very slowly, has mild interest in what he does for work but not enough to call it passion and does the work mostly for the money. That is actually the majority of intellectual employees, that need a job to live but can't find the dream role that's perfect for them to pump them full of life and excitement every day.

You see Sir, you are privileged enough to have a passion and set of skills that you've worked to develop over the years that actually enable you to go out and do whatever it is that you do best and have fun with it, while still bringing you quite enough money to live off. You wouldn't be able to say that about the guitarists, painters, artists, etc out there who are in very low demand and extremely high supply. Yes the elite of these people will do well, but only the elite. You are an elite in your field John, a well known and recognised symbol of the IT and Gaming industry. Most people are not and cannot afford to live off their dreams.

Thus while this new 6 hour system would not apply to you, because you are passionate about what you do and can invest non-stop effort in what you're doing (don't get me wrong, I'm the same just not as good or popular, Yet :D, but I am fortunate enough to live off of what I like doing best) for everyone else, this system would bring benefit for average employees that are willing to keep their Facebook time for home and work while at work. They will have a few more hours for themselves, their kids, their wives, and potentially even allow them the two extra hours a day they need to transform their hobbies into actual financial successes. \

In my opinion, the solution to this whole conundrum is to stop treating all businesses as they are assembly lines and analyse them on a case by case basis. For example in a micro games studio where you only have 10 valuable employees, a task based system might be a much better approach. "We need the sprites done by date x, the core mechanics by date y, and the sound by date z. I don't care if you work 9 to 5, 6 to 24 or 20 minutes a day, as long as they are complete in time we're golden. Then we can have meetings with the whole team to analyse the quality of your work and based on everyone's input we can determine a set of bonuses for different traits of your work (quality, speed, efficiency, reusability, etc).". This is of course an off the top of my head idea but it would work well in a very small studio where everyone has their meetings at the local Pub.

Unfortunately doing such an analysis and discovery on a large business would be extremely costly, so what's the next best thing? Follow the already well established trend, and copy whatever solution works for a different company (and copy it poorly without understanding why it works for that company). There is a reason why google employees in the US live on the Google campus, but nobody bothers to find out why thus what we get is silly generalisations like the 6 hour work day.

Blimey I went on quite a ramble didn't I? Oh well... apologies for the wall of text for all those that'll end up reading it.

And do have a lovely day! :)

Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive

#190

My circle of friends are what you call professionals. They spend an awful lot of time at work, most of it on looking like they're working. There's a fair number of jobs where the work itself is not hard or time consuming, but where a culture has grown where everyone needs to justify their position. This skew incentives; if you're a junior, you end up doing a bunch of little things that can pass as a laundry list of t…

You can opt out of the 48 hour directive in your employment contract in Britain, I expect this is true of most of these type of City jobs.

The problem isn't that you can, the problem is you're forced to!
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