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UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

timesonline.co.uk

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Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#51

Post by kunley »

TheBranca18 wrote: post #37
kunley wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I bet you would say it's poor also if I said it differently, "global warming is overhyped" or whatever, probably because you just don't agree with it. Speaking of poorness of comments, I guess in this matter you can rely on how they are upvoted. No offense, just see for yourself..

I don't agree with it, but that's not the issue. Your comment wasn't worthwhile. You're arguing ad hominem and haven't even backed up your silly point still and it's four or five comments later. Flipping it over on me doesn't change the fact that your comment was poor. There are also obvious counterarguments to your point that popularity means you're right but I don't need to go into them.

No. I didn't do any ad hominem until now:

Dear Mr Brain Police, I did back up my point in another subthread. You were busy here with proving how silly I am so you haven't noticed.

Again, please digest a feedback you're receiving (votes!) and rethink.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#52

Post by vannevar »

anamax wrote: post #28
mseebach wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a conclusion with some pretty far-reaching consequences. Most environmental legislation in industrialized countries for the past decade, if not two, might have been based on flawed science. Considering the egos of the people who would need to go out and say "when the facts change, I change my mind" to clean up this mess, it could take decades. We're hearing a lot about market failure these years, how's this…

> We're hearing a lot about market failure these years, how's this for government failure? Govt failure isn't new. Govt is systemic risk. When US car companies decided that they didn't want to make the kind of vehicles that I wanted, Toyota was willing to do so. When the US govt decides to do something dumb, I'm expected to pay for it. And when I point out that it's doing dumb things, I get yelled at by folks who thi…

Indeed, screw all this 'democracy' business where I'm sometimes in the minority, and this 'free speech' nonsense where people voice disagreement with me. And screw these pointy-headed academics with their sinister hidden agendas, telling businessmen what to do. C'mon boys, let's get our jack-boots on and take care of this silliness once and for all.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#53

Post by vannevar »

ErrantX wrote: post #2

The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised :( I just cant decide who can be trusted as a source for accurate and unbiased information/opinion.

"The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised"

Really? I'll give you a more plausible conclusion: that the scientists in question got tired of responding to repeated Freedom of Information requests from people whose only interest was to disseminate distortions of their findings.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#54

Post by bballant »

anamax wrote: post #32
ubulgaria wrote: post #25

At this point we don't need climate science -- we just need to observe the ice at poles and the dead coral reefs.

> we just need to observe the ice at poles It's currently increasing at both.... The polar bear populations are increasing too. > the dead coral reefs Runoff from deforestation is killing most of them. There's some effect from increased disolved CO2, but it goes both ways. (Some creatures/plants benefit, others have problems, and still others don't seem to care.)

Ice is and polar bear populations are increasing? I have only read evidence to the contrary. Please provide a citation so I don't think you just made this up.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#55

Post by lacrossegm »

vannevar wrote: post #53
ErrantX wrote: post #2

The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised :( I just cant decide who can be trusted as a source for accurate and unbiased information/opinion.

"The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised" Really? I'll give you a more plausible conclusion: that the scientists in question got tired of responding to repeated Freedom of Information requests from people whose only interest was to disseminate distortions of their findings.

Exactly right. The fervent nature of global warming denial-ism drives people to go to great lengths to undermine the real science and delay action.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#56

Post by CWuestefeld »

vannevar wrote: post #53
ErrantX wrote: post #2

The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised :( I just cant decide who can be trusted as a source for accurate and unbiased information/opinion.

"The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised" Really? I'll give you a more plausible conclusion: that the scientists in question got tired of responding to repeated Freedom of Information requests from people whose only interest was to disseminate distortions of their findings.

requests from people whose only interest was to disseminate distortions

How do you know the intent of those asking for information? It seems to me that there are plenty of people here on HN that would just like to try their own hand at models. Who gets to decided when a request merits a response?

the scientists in question got tired of responding to repeated Freedom of Information requests

The one who pays the piper calls the tunes. If you're going to build your business (yes, research and universities are businesses) on public funding, then you've got to be prepared to have your customers -- the public -- ask about what you're doing. It seems to me that they ought to have at least an intern dedicated to maintaining a public web site where everything is made available. Then no annoyance to the researchers would occur.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#57

Post by bballant »

ErrantX wrote: post #2

The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised :( I just cant decide who can be trusted as a source for accurate and unbiased information/opinion.

Trust your instinct and don't lose site of the fact that these cases of bad science are few compared to the good.

My instinct tells me that we're destroying the planet. The effect of global warming is hard to see, but it's not hard to imagine given all of the other messes we've made.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#58

Post by ErrantX »

lacrossegm wrote: post #55
vannevar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised" Really? I'll give you a more plausible conclusion: that the scientists in question got tired of responding to repeated Freedom of Information requests from people whose only interest was to disseminate distortions of their findings.

Exactly right. The fervent nature of global warming denial-ism drives people to go to great lengths to undermine the real science and delay action.

The fervent nature of global warming believers makes it hard to separate political posturing from useful action.

Lets get the data sorted out; not so that we know what to do (that is easy, and almost irrelevant to GW issues - just no one is really bothering....) but so that the politicians can't abuse the figures for their own end.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#59

Post by yannis »

gjm11 wrote: post #50
yannis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just have a look at fig 4 at the paper I quoted above http://www.warwickhughes.com/icecore/zjmar07.pdf You will see the 'hills' I mentioned above. I am not actually suggesting inaction I support any measures that will lower human impact on the planet, however, I am supporting good science and policies that do not have the word TAX in them.

How do you know that the best policies do not involve taxation? (If it's because you take it as an axiom that no good policy involves taxation, then the fact that you don't want taxation in this particular case is perfectly uninformative.)

It's because in general I believe tax money is not utilized effectively and their impact on demand is minimal. Non-tax policies could have similar effects. For example the government could impose a ban on manufacturing SUV vehicles or improve the public transport system. Increasing the age at which one could get a driver's license in the USA would probably reduce petrol consumption by a few percent (as more families have more than one car).

What evidence do you have that the money received in tax would not purchase goods and services that would increase emissions?

I never made an axiom that no good policy involves taxation. It was your assumption. The least you could have done was to ask me to clarify my position.

Re: UK Government: Climate change scientists broke the law hiding data

#60

Post by beagle3 »

bballant wrote: post #57
ErrantX wrote: post #2

The only conclusion that I 've been able to draw from this mess is: climate science has been seriously compromised :( I just cant decide who can be trusted as a source for accurate and unbiased information/opinion.

Trust your instinct and don't lose site of the fact that these cases of bad science are few compared to the good. My instinct tells me that we're destroying the planet. The effect of global warming is hard to see, but it's not hard to imagine given all of the other messes we've made.

How do you know that "these cases of bad science are few compared to the good"?

Seriously, whenever money or prestige is involved, the bad science has a much better chance.

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