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A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

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Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#111
post #82
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as if wealthy people take their money and put it under their mattress. No, they invest it. That investment money flows to other corporations who then spend it on goods and services, or spend it on their employees. No they don't. From what I've read (Piketty etc) they do not re-circulate it into the general economy. They use investment vehicles which are increasingly divorced from "real world" economics and m…

> They use investment vehicles which are increasingly divorced from "real world" economics and more like moving chips around on a poker table. Which investment vehicles are those? You cannot in general invest money into vehicles which earn a good return but which are divorced from the real world. Imagine if you invest in a company like Apple. Apple developed products like the iPod and iPhone, and the company's value…

> Which investment vehicles are those?

Hedge funds and the like.

> leads to their valuation, which leads to the return on our hypothetical investment.

'Return' on an increase in valuation isn't a real return. It's exactly like poker.

The way markets are supposed to work is you invest in an IPO, then you get a dividend sometime in the future, and then maybe the company buys back your shares.

The way it generally works for most people is you buy shares on the open market, then someone else buys those shares from you. This has nothing to do with the 'reality' of the company because both of you are speculators, neither has given money to the company, and neither has received money from the company. You're both just playing with poker chips.

> Can you describe how these investment vehicles work such that they're earning a return while being disconnected from the real world? Where does the money come from for the returns?

You buy into the market (non-IPO). When the value goes up, you sell. You're selling to other investors.

So the answer is, much of the money for the returns comes from other investors (not unlike a Ponzi scheme, however since you're both speculating, it's more akin to a poker table).

On a large scale the way it works is that hedge funds and traders are the ones making money, at the expense of less sophisticated traders, like mutual funds, pension funds, and retail traders.

Of course, this doesn't include the fact the dividends and buybacks actually are real, and do represent a non-trivial portion of the market, but there certainly is a large enough amount of investment vehicles which are divorced from the 'real world'.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#112
post #61
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People aren't asking for "income equality" they are asking for some level of humanity and democracy to be restored to our version of Capitalism, to strengthen that capitalism. That phrase could mean anything in practice that anyone wants it to mean. If we're going to discuss these things, we should be specific. What specific policy is desired, and how is it going to help? "Humanity" and "democracy" are not economic…

It's not as if wealthy people take their money and put it under their mattress. No, they invest it. That investment money flows to other corporations who then spend it on goods and services, or spend it on their employees. No they don't. From what I've read (Piketty etc) they do not re-circulate it into the general economy. They use investment vehicles which are increasingly divorced from "real world" economics and m…

Erm in that case why do the Rothschilds run RIT Capital Partners - which is explicitly set up to allow non family members to invest (as I do )

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#113
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narcissistic pricks. Not only do you have to be saving the world, but as it turns out, you have to be causing all of the problems as well. You Silicon Valley cunts have managed to begin asphyxiating yourselves from shoving your heads up your own assholes too far. Go read Thomas Sowell[0], and stop wasting everybody's time with your self-righteous publicized ego deaths. — [0]: http://www.worldmag.com/2014/12/thomas_so…

We've banned this account for breaking the HN guidelines. If you would prefer it not to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com. We're happy to unban accounts if there is reason to believe they will follow the site rules in the future.

As a fan of Thomas Sowell, it is unfortunate to have to say "whoa, this person is not with me" in polite company. If this person is reading, please cut it out. Swearing and insulting people won't lead to anything good.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#114
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes a little further than what the other people are saying. It's not just that the reply "All Lives Matter" is ignoring the issue of police violence against African Americans. It's being used as a defense of the police officers who did the killings, an apologistic post-hoc rationalization that the cop was defending himself. When a person uses "All Lives Matter", what they really mean is "cop's lives matter more".…

>When a person uses "All Lives Matter", what they really >mean is "cop's lives matter more" No, I understand it to be "police can sometimes use force unjustifiably towards anyone, of any race." If a cop murders someone, s/he should be held responsible (sadly, they are not). The reason that more black people get murdered by police is that they (blacks) get in trouble more often (which is NOT a justification to kill th…

yes, of course

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#115
post #9

PGs articles aren't wrong - but they are second order, when we need a first order response to a current evil [ before it leads to bloody revolution ] If you look at income distribution its a hockey stick - you really have to slap yourself on the face and realise there is no middle class - what you thought of as professional-middle-class-contributor is actually college-debt-burdened-lower-class - no matter how many ye…

"lower class are basically slaves" You're going to compare working graveyards at 7-Eleven to slavery ? You should read a little bit about slavery and human trafficking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery I suspect most slaves would not agree with you.

> You're going to compare working graveyards at 7-Eleven to slavery?

> I suspect most slaves would not agree with you.

The abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass initially declared, "now I am my own master", upon taking a paying job. But later in life, he concluded to the contrary, "experience demonstrates that there may be a slavery of wages only a little less galling and crushing in its effects than chattel slavery, and that this slavery of wages must go down with the other"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#116
post #27
post #9

PGs articles aren't wrong - but they are second order, when we need a first order response to a current evil [ before it leads to bloody revolution ] If you look at income distribution its a hockey stick - you really have to slap yourself on the face and realise there is no middle class - what you thought of as professional-middle-class-contributor is actually college-debt-burdened-lower-class - no matter how many ye…

What's interesting about this election is that so much of the anger, especially from lower class whites, is being channeled into the Republican party. It's not a cry for wealth distribution, it's a cry against immigrants supposedly taking our jobs. And that's a big failing by the Democrats to tap into that anger. But I think this is going to be typical of elections going forward, red hot anger being directed at the s…

Wealth distribution is a big problem, because the richest can essentially buy the government (and that's exactly what they have been doing) [http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/11/us/politics/20...]

But if you took the money from the 1% and distributed it to everyone, it would probably amount to a few thousand dollars each, at best.

The reason for lack of jobs is the they all went to India, China, etc.

As for immigrants, don;t you think there is something awfully wrong with the fact that Massachusetts for years provided housing and money to the Tsarnaev family (the Boston bombers and their parents), yet war veterans are often homeless, because there is never any money left to take care of them?

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#117
post #81
post #46

Got this far and stopped reading: To quote Graham, mafioso of the startup incubators: I have lots of valid reasons to be really grumpy about lots of things. I am also not a fan per se of PG. But any supposed debate that starts by basically smearing the character of the person you are debating is unlikely to be based on sound, objective reasoning. This piece is almost certainly not motivated by a desire to correct any…

Maybe it's actually better that OP did that as in "you've been warned" as to some bias. I didn't see it as a smear and by the way Ron Conway has been referred to as "the godfather" by the mainstream press and bloggers (at least as I recall).

oh my god he is being tongue in cheek seriously

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#118
post #87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's actually better that OP did that as in "you've been warned" as to some bias. I didn't see it as a smear and by the way Ron Conway has been referred to as "the godfather" by the mainstream press and bloggers (at least as I recall).

Sure. And we also have the expression "PayPal Mafia." But those are written for mainstream audiences. This piece appears to have been written for Hacker News, where the vast majority of readers know exactly who pg is, what he does and that he is enormously powerful. Almost no one here needs to be told by analogy that pg is a serious contender of that sort. But have an upvote.

oh my god he is being tongue in cheek seriously

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#119
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I was being lighthearted with that word choice, and I don't have any axe to grind with PG personally. An alternative which captures the same sentiment without any negative connotations would be "maestro" "majordomo" "magnate" or even "de Medici".

"Founder" or "investor" are equally accurate as to who and what PG happens to be. If you are writing for the HN audience, you can assume that the vast majority of your readers are well aware who is and how much power he exercises. To me, your "clarification" smacks of "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and (in my opinion) pg simply has a too distasteful amount of power to be assumed to be a decent…

oh my god he is being tongue in cheek seriously

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#120
Perhaps I've been sensitized by recent reading[1], but I don't think this response addresses the real problems with PG's article.

The problem with inequality is not necessarily the inequality itself. The poor in America are significantly better off than the wealthy were not very long ago, in most material senses, as has been repeatedly pointed out. So what if they don't get as good health care or education or whatever as some of their neighbors; it's still better than they would have had. The problem is that relative wealth, inequality, is power. It always has been, and it always will be.[2] (Admittedly, in other societies, wealth isn't the only power. But with the decline of the church and the significant lack of both feudal aristocracy and totalitarian[3] governments, wealth is really the only power left.)

So, here's a question: is it proper for a vanishingly small segment of society to be able to establish and maintain power over the vast majority? Me, I've got no idea. Don't really care, either. Because a better question is: is it a good idea? And I think the verdict of history there is a pretty solid Nope.

Are you unhappy with the Koch brothers' political views? That's another stupid question; their specific desires are pretty much irrelevant. Much more important is how you feel about how they go about expressing and supporting their views. When reading PG's or this article, remember that Charles' and David's father was very much a start-up entrepreneur. Their grandfather was a Dutch immigrant and printer and Fred was exactly the kind of person PG is talking about in his essay. Now, you can can go on about "limiting corruption in politics", but keep in mind that the Koch brothers are apparently planning on putting something like a trillion dollars into the 2016 election; it's hard to perceive anything but that their views will always matter more than yours.

Inequality in wealth and power is not even a new thing in this country; I'm given to understand that the state now is at or approaching levels from the gilded age, but not exceeding them. What is new, is that for a time in this country we didn't have wild inequality. Here's what Paul has to say about that:

"I think rising economic inequality is the inevitable fate of countries that don't choose something worse. We had a 40 year stretch in the middle of the 20th century that convinced some people otherwise. But as I explained in The Refragmentation, that was an anomaly—a unique combination of circumstances that compressed American society not just economically but culturally too."

(Personally, I think that the cultural compression that Paul fears so much is somewhat overblown. But then, I grew up in the '70s in Amarillo, TX (not far from the Koch's Quanah, weirdly) and rather fortunately had the library at WTSU about 45 minutes south in Canyon.)

The thing that bothers me most: All of those fancy technologies that PG emphasizes, those that some commentors here are happy to trade 45 years of real wage growth for, had their direct roots in that brief period of weird equality. What happens next? What happens after AirBnB puts all the hotels out of business and we're all staying in each other's spare bedrooms on trips? What happens after Uber has killed off all the taxi companies in the world and replaced them with spare-time drivers? Do things still keep getting better and better? Sure, my nifty new Galaxy Note is better than my old land-line, but exactly how much better is an iPhone6 compared to a 5?

Or, ultimately, do Larry Ellison's sons, Charles and David, decide they don't want to deal with all of this bullshit and start throwing their weight around Silicon Valley?

And when they do, what are you going to do about it?

[1] The Story of Philosophy, by Will Durant, if you're interested. In fact, I'm in the middle of the chapter on Nietzsche; one of the best comments in this very well-written and quite good book is a footnote following a quote from Nietzsche regarding how excesses in the behavior of the übermensch will be restrained by morality: something to the effect of "How did that get back in here?"

In any case, PG's comments like, "Most people who get rich tend to be fairly driven. Whatever their other flaws, laziness is usually not one of them" (Laziness isn't one of the flaws of that single mother working three jobs, either.) or "Louis Brandeis said 'We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.' That sounds plausible. But if I have to choose between ignoring him and ignoring a polynomial curve that has been operating for thousands of years, I'll bet on the curve" strike me with a certain sense of deja vu.

[2] In anything remotely resembling a foreseeable human society.

[3] "Totalitarianism is best understood as any system of political ideas that is both thoroughly dictatorial and utopian." (http://www.iep.utm.edu/totalita/)

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