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A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

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Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#41
I'll give a short explanation as to why I flagged this:

This piece irrationally pisses me off, for purely petty social dynamics reasons.

1) There's a first-mover advantage to thinkpiece responses. Everyone obviously is going to read the first response, many people are probably writing responses of their own. This seems like a quick way to jump into a discussion and say "hey, look at me!" You better have something useful to say.

2) It's just a really poorly thought out response. It rehashes basically the same points everybody knows, adding zero new information or insight, without responding to the meat of what Paul's saying.

3) There was a time when I sincerely believed Hacker News was the one place to go to escape from petty thinkpiece nonsense. It continues to sadden me to see this community in decline. PG should start another website.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#42
post #9

PGs articles aren't wrong - but they are second order, when we need a first order response to a current evil [ before it leads to bloody revolution ] If you look at income distribution its a hockey stick - you really have to slap yourself on the face and realise there is no middle class - what you thought of as professional-middle-class-contributor is actually college-debt-burdened-lower-class - no matter how many ye…

> I really think we are headed for bloody revolution, because most of the populace are angry, and its a rational anger because their survival needs are barely being met, in many cases.

From someone who grew up poor and identifies strongly with outlaws, I concur.

But unlike OP I think it needs to happen.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#43
As a response to PG's article, I posted this:

>PG is wrong that he is a creator of economic inequality. Technology development usually brings prices down. This is deflationary; the 'big picture' way that deflation happens: that prices are discovered more efficiently, or resources are used more efficiently, or that idle labor capacity is recruited to fulfill a want or need that was not known before (esp: think uber/lyft).

>Deflationary processes are inherently anti-inequality. Think of it this way. If we never changed the minimum wage, then people's incomes, especially at the bottom segment of society would make their net economic potential greater over time.

>It is not the investment in technology that makes "tech drive inequality". It is the political structure around it. We have a structure where monetary policy shoves free or cheap money into the faces of banks and the investment classes in efforts to 'stimulate' the economy, where the secular (over decades, not over years) inflation drives low- and middle- class citizens into risky investment activity just to be able to sustain themselves in their later years (effectively a subsidy for the rich).

"families often consist of two breadwinners (& no children) with a hearty amount of debt, nothing owned, and few savings. The family unit itself may even be weaker because of less shared ownership. Wages haven’t tracked productivity for decades, so wages haven’t risen since the previous story was normal."

Is this because of rapacious capitalists taking wages? The nominal wage has increased since the early 70s, but the purchasing power of that nominal wage has gone down faster than the increase. This is policy, not capitalism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/opinion/krugman-not-enough...

Policy wonks like to argue that the fed should "pay more attention to employment". The irony is that if you think that people are consigned to being wage slaves, a national policy of total employment is keeping people there. There is a cost to getting people employed, and that is that those who are employed are going to be paid less, and the way you trick people into that is by making what people earn be less, even for the same or greater nominal amount ("sticky wages argument").

What happened in the early 70s? Prior to the nixon shock we had wage increases leading inflation and a trending toward decreasing of the wage gap that had momentum enough to continue till about the 2000s (if you think about it that momentum makes sense because entrants into the workforce in the 70s started retiring in the 200s) - during the bush/obama era we see income inequality turning the corner.

While we are certainly trending towards getting worse things actually are not that bad:

http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/d823a614-9e82-11e5-b4...

Everyone is worried about the far right side of the graph (which is partially a histogram artifact) but look at the left hand side of the graph and see how the lowest income fraction of society is far less populated than 40 years ago. (yes, between 2008 and 2015 it is getting worse, which is cause to worry)

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#44
post #9

PGs articles aren't wrong - but they are second order, when we need a first order response to a current evil [ before it leads to bloody revolution ] If you look at income distribution its a hockey stick - you really have to slap yourself on the face and realise there is no middle class - what you thought of as professional-middle-class-contributor is actually college-debt-burdened-lower-class - no matter how many ye…

> So, just as "All Lives Matter" is not a good response to the "Black Lives Matter" movement,

It's tangential, but can you please explain this part? It seems to me that "All Lives Matter" really is the more apt phrase, because it shifts the focus from an us-versus-them conflict to actual justice.

Edit: Got it. I'll stop being part of the problem. The only remaining question is this: What's the most effective way to be part of the solution?

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"lower class are basically slaves" You're going to compare working graveyards at 7-Eleven to slavery ? You should read a little bit about slavery and human trafficking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery I suspect most slaves would not agree with you.

Masters actually bought slaves. They weren't cheap. So they had to, you know, feed them and care for them somewhat. Now when you aren't needed at the 7/11 you can almost just go die in a fire: have you seen was homelessness is like in the US? I have.

You do understand that this is basically the argument that slaveowners used to justify continuing slavery in the 19th century?

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#46
Got this far and stopped reading:

To quote Graham, mafioso of the startup incubators:

I have lots of valid reasons to be really grumpy about lots of things. I am also not a fan per se of PG. But any supposed debate that starts by basically smearing the character of the person you are debating is unlikely to be based on sound, objective reasoning. This piece is almost certainly not motivated by a desire to correct any logic missteps in pg's writing. It is most likely a thinly veiled excuse for trying to trash the man personally.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#47

"I am a manufacturer of income inequality." Bullshit.

Narcissistic pricks. Not only do you have to be saving the world, but as it turns out, you have to be causing all of the problems as well.

You Silicon Valley cunts have managed to begin asphyxiating yourselves from shoving your heads up your own assholes too far.

Go read Thomas Sowell[0], and stop wasting everybody's time with your self-righteous publicized ego deaths.

— [0]: http://www.worldmag.com/2014/12/thomas_sowell_on_the_root_ca...

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#48
post #35
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes - in order to say something that is true, I need to say something that is false. You'd be right to call me on it, and I'd have it no other way.

> in order to say something that is true, I need to say something that is false. What does this mean?

I use the term 'slavery' because its descriptive, not because its literally true.

I do understand that 711 shift workers don't have their feet cut off if they leave.

When I say things like "we need a bit of Socialism right about now" .. I don't mean hardcore enforced-total-equality Socialism, I mean nice Socialism like the kind Bernie Sanders has been raving about.

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#49
post #9

PGs articles aren't wrong - but they are second order, when we need a first order response to a current evil [ before it leads to bloody revolution ] If you look at income distribution its a hockey stick - you really have to slap yourself on the face and realise there is no middle class - what you thought of as professional-middle-class-contributor is actually college-debt-burdened-lower-class - no matter how many ye…

"lower class are basically slaves" You're going to compare working graveyards at 7-Eleven to slavery ? You should read a little bit about slavery and human trafficking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery I suspect most slaves would not agree with you.

> I suspect most slaves would not agree with you.

No kidding! Believe it or not, even in 2016, there are tens of millions of people around the world living in actual slavery[0]. Most of them would probably still literally give a kidney to trade places with one of these lower-class people in the US.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

Re: A Response to Paul Graham’s Article on Income Inequality

#50
post #46

Got this far and stopped reading: To quote Graham, mafioso of the startup incubators: I have lots of valid reasons to be really grumpy about lots of things. I am also not a fan per se of PG. But any supposed debate that starts by basically smearing the character of the person you are debating is unlikely to be based on sound, objective reasoning. This piece is almost certainly not motivated by a desire to correct any…

Ah, I was being lighthearted with that word choice, and I don't have any axe to grind with PG personally. An alternative which captures the same sentiment without any negative connotations would be "maestro" "majordomo" "magnate" or even "de Medici".
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