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Economic Inequality

paulgraham.com

161–170 of 580 posts

Re: Economic Inequality

#161

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

"Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich"" Yes they are. Don't you remember all the articles about Zuckerberg's charity, and how it is bad that rich people have so much control over society, and that the solution shouldn't be charity, it should be to prevent people from becoming so rich in the first place? That shit was all over the place.

Zuckerberg isn't really engaging in charity. Its basically buying political influence is one of his stated goals.

I'm not sure why people keeping thinking he is engaging in charitable activity when what he really said he was engaging in investment & nonprofit activity.

Re: Economic Inequality

#162
post #36
post #4

Central thesis (hidden a bit): "ending economic inequality would mean ending startups". So, who is the straw man who advocates completely ending economic inequality? Even left wingers in Europe (far to the left of anyone mainstream in the US) talk mainly of reducing it. So, if economic inequality were substantially reduced, would there still be startups? I believe another piece of common advice in this field is that…

Reducing economic inequality is merely a lesser form of eliminating it. I think the tough question people should consider here is whether relative inequality or absolute standard of living is the more important metric. If absolute standard of living rises faster as economic inequality increases, why should we try and limit economic inequality?

I would posit that the extreme levels of economic inequality we see today is actually putting downward pressure on economic growth.

Re: Economic Inequality

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note: the most offensive economic inequality isn't the 1% vs. the 99%, which successful startup founders would find themselves on the wrong side of. It's more about the 80 individuals with more wealth than half the world's population [1] – which, yes, does include "startup founders" such as Gates, Ellison, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Page & Brin, etc. But the vast majority of successful startup founders aren't in this…

> "More wealth than half the world's population" That's such a disingenuous statistic. A huge number of people, including a huge number of very well off people, have a negative net worth due to debt. I don't have a car payment or a mortgage, so I have more wealth than at least 30% of America, over 100 million people, combined! It's disappointing to see that FiveThirtyEight has now become just another outfit twisting…

This is a disingenuous rebuttal. The difference in wealth between someone worth $45B, and two people each worth $1 million and -$1million respectively, is identical. The millionaire is worth less than 0.01% of the first. If this were a card game, the millionaire could go piss himself.

If it were possible to put $45B into a typical savings account earning 1% interest per year, that $45B person will make more money doing nothing in 1 day than the millionaire is worth. The thing is, it's not possible to do that. It's actually difficult to make only $1 million per day off $45B in assets. You'd have to give away huge chunks of assets to avoid making $4+ million per day.

The problem is hoarding. It's no longer enough to go back to a 94% income rate for the top bracket like we used to have for ~30 years expressly to prevent this amount of hoarding.

Re: Economic Inequality

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, exactly. Wealthy people rarely keep to themselves. They usually try to shape the world around them, and in our society the best way to do that is to influence politicians to pass policies that they agree with and are favorable to them. And these policies come almost always at the expense of the have-nots.

> They usually try to shape the world around them Least of which are: Bill Gates: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/ Warren Buffet: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2013/07/09/buffett-makes-his-... Mark Zuckerberg: https://www.facebook.com/chanzuckerberginitiative/

Counter-point: wealthy bankers and hedge fund managers caused the 2009 financial collapse and none of them went to jail because it's not feasible for politicians to go after their campaign contributors.

Re: Economic Inequality

#165
post #119
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He accepts that this is true through various forms of rent seeking behavior. He even explicitly condones such forms of wealth creation.

I think you mean 'condemns,' not 'condones,' rent-seeking.

Most of the extreme wealth comes from rent seeking.

Re: Economic Inequality

#166
The article is reasonable in the scope it addresses. It's ok for some to be richer than others. We get it. Where it's not fair is that the system is rigged (as other commenters have said). I'm very surprised it's missing from the article.

Maybe, the author should talk about inequality of taxation and the good old Dutch Sandwich. No, the top 1% don't play fair or even remotely pay fair taxes. Pick the top 100 on NASDAQ. I'll almost guarantee they pay less than 10% tax.

If you addressed taxation, you'd eliminate almost all valid criticisms. There'd still be outsourcing, legal system bias (eg. White collar crime such as the GFC where there was little or no accountability) and monopolistic issues, but tax was meant to be the great liberator.

I'm curious why the author skipped the Dutch Sandwich and tax rate paid by the top 1%.

Re: Economic Inequality

#167
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that more offensive? What if they were all startup founders or created companies that made profound and positive change? At what point is the cross-over between being reasonably and unreasonably wealthy? If they have too much money and give most of it away, is that better than continuing to create new ventures that could make a difference? This economic inequality feels similar to racism. Why should a very wea…

These sorts of discussions always go downhill because they very quickly turn into defending (and attacking) people as if their identity is inextricably linked to their wealth, which means that policy discussions are read (and sometimes written) as personal attacks. Can we do better than that, please? I don't see a claim that any of these folks are bad people for their money. Gates, for instance, is doing extraordinar…

> If they had a 99% marginal tax rate once they have assets of $500M (on any form of gaining wealth), would we have a weaker Microsoft or Facebook or Google doing less good for the world because they wouldn't be working as hard? Would the good done to people on the lower end of the scale not outweigh any possible harm here? That seems hard to imagine.

Maybe you're imagining it on the wrong time scale.

If you say Larry Page can "only" make an effective maximum of $500M, that isn't going to stop him founding Google, but what does it do once he actually has $500M? He owns shares in his company that have grown to be worth $40B so then he owes the government ~$39.5B in taxes. So he effectively has to sell his company to pay his taxes. (And if he doesn't have to pay the tax until he sells the shares then he never will and your tax plan fails.)

Before the tax he was going to keep most of the shares and thereby have control of the company. The primary difference caused is therefore that more large corporations will be publicly rather than privately controlled. So the assumption has to be that that will somehow lead to higher incomes and standard of living for the middle class.

But that doesn't make any sense. Publicly traded companies have no soul. The CEO's job in a publicly traded company is "maximize shareholder value" and that means grinding competitors' bones into dusty by squeezing every cent out of your customers, suppliers and employees. The people being squeezed are the middle class.

At least if the company is controlled by a human person you can have Henry Ford saying his employees should get paid enough to afford his products. A company's owner is the only one who is authorized to decide that there is something more important than shareholder value.

The problem with today's economy is that that isn't happening often enough, in large part because too many major companies are publicly traded. But you're proposing something that would make it effectively impossible to happen at all.

Re: Economic Inequality

#168

Lots of window dressing to serve up PG'a core thought: >So let's be clear about that. Ending economic inequality would mean ending startups. PG also called those who questioned Mark Zuckerberg's altruistic intentions "losers." In reference to Altman's bewilderment at the criticism of Zuckerberg's donation to his LLC. I have tremendous respect for PG on startup related manners, but in terms of making a better society,…

The philanthropy point is not to be missed.

The perception of Silicon Valley super rich people by the rest of the USA is that they are more stingy with their wealth than respected entrepreneurs in other industries. SV super rich are perceived to punt forever: "If I invest my $100M rather than donate it, then I can grow it to $500M and donate half of that, $250M! See, everybody wins." But then they never do end up actually donating the money (except for Marc Benioff, who "gets it", and who I don't believe would write such an out of touch article as Graham's).

So the SV super rich wind up resented by the public and then run PR like this article.

Re: Economic Inequality

#169

Graham is arguing against an enormous straw man. Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich” or “end all economic inequality”. The most extreme proposals I’ve seen in America are ones like, “institute an unconditional basic income as an alternative to means-tested welfare programs,” or “allow every citizen/resident into a single-payer healthcare system,” or “go back to the tax structure of the 195…

"Nobody is suggesting that we “prevent people from getting rich"" Yes they are. Don't you remember all the articles about Zuckerberg's charity, and how it is bad that rich people have so much control over society, and that the solution shouldn't be charity, it should be to prevent people from becoming so rich in the first place? That shit was all over the place.

"That shit" could be interpreted this way: Having "obscene" wealth accumulate with one or a few persons means the decision-making about using that wealth becomes idiosyncratic and volatile at worst, generally misdirected at best. In market-fundamentalist terminology, huge actors cannot result in optimal results. Markets work best with broadly-held wealth and millions or billions of small bets, lowering the criticality of market failure.

Re: Economic Inequality

#170
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank You. Paul Graham says: 'Louis Brandeis said "We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." That sounds plausible. But if I have to choose between ignoring him and ignoring a polynomial curve that has been operating for thousands of years, I'll bet on the curve.' You mention a very important argument which Mr. Graham seems to have missed, or simply writ…

"Democracy can be destroyed by wealth inequalities which then create power inequalities" : citation?

Let's start with the Koch brothers, who will spend $889 million this year to sway the election.
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