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Economic Inequality

paulgraham.com

141–150 of 580 posts

Re: Economic Inequality

#141
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this line of argument is that relative poverty is a problem as well as absolute poverty. To pick the most obvious example, huge inequalities in wealth inevitably give rise to huge inequalities in power and influence, which can subvert democratic government. Also, what rising tide? In the US at least, real incomes are stagnating or falling for most people.

Yep, exactly. Wealthy people rarely keep to themselves. They usually try to shape the world around them, and in our society the best way to do that is to influence politicians to pass policies that they agree with and are favorable to them. And these policies come almost always at the expense of the have-nots.

> They usually try to shape the world around them

Least of which are:

Bill Gates: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/

Warren Buffet: https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2013/07/09/buffett-makes-his-...

Mark Zuckerberg: https://www.facebook.com/chanzuckerberginitiative/

Re: Economic Inequality

#142
That is a pretty bad extrapolation on his part.

I don't think anyone here (or for the most part) would say the rich getting richer is the problem. The concern is that the poor and the middle class are stagnated. I was really hoping he would talk about those issues.

Re: Economic Inequality

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "More wealth than half the world's population" That's such a disingenuous statistic. A huge number of people, including a huge number of very well off people, have a negative net worth due to debt. I don't have a car payment or a mortgage, so I have more wealth than at least 30% of America, over 100 million people, combined! It's disappointing to see that FiveThirtyEight has now become just another outfit twisting…

It's more complicated than that. You need to live in a cheap part of town to afford rent but your city is un-walkable and has poor public transportation? Buy or lease a car so you can reliably get to work on time. You have a family and want to send your children to the best (or even decent) public schools? Live in a more expensive area - you have to buy access to good schools in many places, and the monthly payment o…

The problem is that these measures leave out most people's most valuable asset, their future earning potential. There's nothing wrong with having a serviceable mortgage or car payment. I think you misinterpreted me.

Yes, people do profit from that debt. Good! Because otherwise you wouldn't be able to turn some of that future earning potential into buying power today. This ancient innovation, the loan, allows us to do that. If the lender didn't stand to profit from interest, he wouldn't lend. It's a triumph of capitalism.

Re: Economic Inequality

#144
post #103

I don’t think “income inequality” has much to do with the rich getting richer, especially startups. I think the concern has to do with whether those same startups make the poor, poorer. Some do, some don’t. I believe that Github, for example, makes it easier for the world’s poor to become richer. Amazon or Walmart, on the other hand... Some of these disruptive industries make a lot of people poorer by driving busines…

> Amazon or Walmart, on the other hand... Some of these disruptive industries make a lot of people poorer by driving businesses into bankruptcy. Amazon and Walmart make the poor richer, because they need spend a smaller proportion of their incomes on food & goods. That's why Amazon & Walmart out-competed the mom-and-pops of a generation ago. This was bad for the owners of the mom-and-pop stores, but it was good for t…

It's a double edge sword.

Yes, Walmart helped to lower costs for the poor, but they also drove a lot of small businesses under and have fought hard to suppress wages and benefits. Overall, I'm not sure it is a net win.

Re: Economic Inequality

#145
The problem with any discussion about inequality is that it ends up discussing the rich rather than wealth. This turns the discussion into a moral one which destroy any possibility of discussing this rationally.

First. It often creates two groups. The 1% and the rest and then go on to discuss trickle down effect. While it's in fact true that trickle down proportionally does not work with the 1% it does work with a lot of other people who create wealth and invest them into other things which then in return creates jobs much more proportional to their wealth (but still of course not in any 1 to 1 relationship)

Second. A lot of time discussions about the rich ends up being about their moral compass and their intentions to avoid paying taxes rather than about how they became rich and then look for any weakness in the system which allow for extreme richness (if any)

Third. In any discussion about how to tax the uber rich, tax avoidance and lobbying often ends up being the focal point. What I would like to suggest is instead we look at extreme wealth as a function primarily fueled by technology and globalization and then further down the list politics, network etc.

I.e. many of the people who are extremely rich today are so because they benefitted from technology and globalization happening at the right time for them not because they somehow worked the system fraudently to become rich (some of course did use it more than others but often also end up being rich much shorter time)

Extreme wealth is a function of the system not just the choice and skills of individuals. Someone will become the richest and their richness will be highly influenced by the system they operate in. Since this system is primarily technological and technology moves faster than legislation the job isn't to figure what rules to implement/remove/adjust but rather how to do it fast enough and still without killing the ability for growth.

But this wont happen until the economist who advice governments acknowledging technology as part of the equation instead of treating it as an externality as they do now.

And so why I have nothing against people getting rich (heck I hope to be so one day myself) trying to defend it like PG does here strikes me as extremely limited in how to understand the issues with inequality.

Re: Economic Inequality

#146
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of discussions always go downhill because they very quickly turn into defending (and attacking) people as if their identity is inextricably linked to their wealth, which means that policy discussions are read (and sometimes written) as personal attacks. Can we do better than that, please? I don't see a claim that any of these folks are bad people for their money. Gates, for instance, is doing extraordinar…

In a capitalist system, you become wealthy by creating value for people in mutually beneficial and consensual transactions. Tax discourages that kind of value creation. You can try to hide this effect by using really large numbers (they'll still have $500M!) but that's deceptive because, even if their motivation wouldn't have been affected (which I disagree with), these uber-wealthy people are the exception, not the…

I think the case for their motivation being affected makes sense in a physical-goods economy. If a woodworker sells $500M of chairs, sure, there's suddenly much less motivation to spend the same amount of parts and labor on the next chair for 1% of the profit.

But for other kinds of revenue that makes less sense. The 5 millionth copy of Windows does as much good for that particular customer as every previous one, at essentially zero marginal cost. Does knowing that, in advance, discourage you from making Windows as good as it is?

Anyway, my point was that this is something we can have a reasoned discussion about, without either side needing to poison the well by making analogies to immorality. You can have a perfectly moral society that's either biased or not biased against the hyper-rich. If you believe one of these is wrong as policy, that's fine. If you believe the hyper-rich don't matter to the fairness of a society, that's a perfectly reasonable argument. But if you believe one of these is so wrong as to be equivalent to racism, it seems very difficult to justify that claim, and if you can't, it seems highly counterproductive to discourse.

Re: Economic Inequality

#147
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that more offensive? What if they were all startup founders or created companies that made profound and positive change? At what point is the cross-over between being reasonably and unreasonably wealthy? If they have too much money and give most of it away, is that better than continuing to create new ventures that could make a difference? This economic inequality feels similar to racism. Why should a very wea…

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rMhvYeQPOcE/maxresdefault.jpg People with more money pay taxes at a lower rate than people without. It's very easy to pick obvious cutoffs where people are wealthy to the point of absurdity compared to their "peers".

The chart you presented doesn't show the value created, just the value captured by a given segment. Wouldn't that be an important consideration? It's estimated that innovators, the group that Dr Graham is talking about, only capture around 2% of the value they create, with the rest going to society [1]. That's the whole point of the essay, that maybe reducing the 'absurd' levels of wealth will also lead to reduction in the levels of value creation that society currently benefits from.

[1] http://www.nber.org/papers/w10433

Re: Economic Inequality

#148
> economic inequality is really about poverty (...) startups aren't the problem (...) The problem is not economic inequality...

Really, no. The problem is really economic inequality.

Poverty is a problem; a different problem, that has always existed and that is (slowly) improving.

Economic inequality is a new problem (or, the recent incarnation of an old problem) and it's undesirable in and of itself.

Also, poverty is a symptom that the system isn't working. It's always been assumed that "a rising tide lifts all boats"; but after the emergence of the super-rich and their continued prosperity, the facts that not only the poor are still poor, but the middle class sees its income stagnate, absolutely disproves this assumption.

A rising tide lifts yachts; but for those living in a hut on the shore, a rising tide destroys their home and has a good chance of drowning them.

Re: Economic Inequality

#149

The trend is that wealth inequality will become almost the same as IQ inequality. IQ is more much important today than a generation ago in influencing individual economic outcomes. 100 years ago in an economy dominated by manual labor, the difference between a 90 IQ and 120 IQ wasn't that important, but now it is.

Where did you get that? As far as I've read, most studies find very poor or no correlations at all between IQ and wealth. And that's striking, given what you'd expect from a metric that measures IQ, isn't it?

In fact, those same studies often identify other factors. Interestingly, your parent's class is a hugely important indicator. Sociologists call this phenomenon social reproduction, and it essentially goes against the ideals of the 'american dream', where one can get ahead through hard work. In reality, socioeconomic mobility is quite poor, particularly in the US, which would explain metrics like IQ not being one of the foremost factors in determining wealth.

I would agree with you (not on the basis of data but merely by assumption) that IQ today in a mainly services economy is more important than 100 years ago in a mainly manual labor economy.

Re: Economic Inequality

#150
post #60
post #28

Pg, in effect: "if there was no economic inequality there would be no startups (and all the good they bring). The real problem is the number of super poor, not the number of super rich". But this is a straw man: no one is arguing for total economic equality, just a reduction in inequality. Further, pg asserts that startups are wealth creators, and they thus create rich founders without having influence on poverty in…

> This is patently false: the best startups make money eating other people's lunch, and they concentrate this money in the hands of the founders. No, they concentrate the profits in the hands of their founders, but the big winners are the millions of consumers. Yeah, Jeff Bezos is rich, but not as rich as a world with Amazon in it

The point in question is that it is debatable that a startup like Uber, or Airbnb create absolute wealth: that if airbnb is worth 1billion dollars, they created 1 billion in value, because they also damanged other industries.

Facebook can be super successful, but more people use it at work that they used to, is there a negative value effect of its services in society? Are cabbies poorer because of Uber?

A huge part of startup growth is effectively eating other industries, something always ommited in the argument "we create value, we are just making the pie bigger". Business are supposed to devour each other, its just a bad image to give.

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