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Economic Inequality

paulgraham.com

121–130 of 580 posts

Re: Economic Inequality

#121
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a straw man. In general when people worry about inequality, except the most radical commentators, they worry about a trend, not about differences in net worth. Maybe unconsciously, PG try to sell the idea that this a binary thing, you have 0 inequality or you should leave the market do its thing. This is not true. There is a balance and we have a lot examples that show that. The pie thing don't pass the smell t…

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I really don't see your point.

Piketty shows (with data, by the way) that, below a percentage of economic grow, capital returns are bigger than labour returns.

The conclusion is that there is a trend (very important, it is a trend) to bigger inequality inherent to the system.

What do he propose? A communist revolution? The abolition of inequality by the proletariat?

No, just tax capital so we can redistribute it to all the society.

Of course, if you are a billionaire (except maybe Warren Buffet), you are always to be in favour of "laissez faire", that is, in favour of not changing anything. We are just right now like we should be. Everything is perfect, we don't want to kill innovation.

Re: Economic Inequality

#122
post #4

Central thesis (hidden a bit): "ending economic inequality would mean ending startups". So, who is the straw man who advocates completely ending economic inequality? Even left wingers in Europe (far to the left of anyone mainstream in the US) talk mainly of reducing it. So, if economic inequality were substantially reduced, would there still be startups? I believe another piece of common advice in this field is that…

Exactly.

Warren Buffet has said an increased tax rate would not make him work any less hard.

The desire to change the world is a more powerful motivator than money.

Re: Economic Inequality

#123
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the term social mobility. A person's station in life should not be tied to their parents' income level.

Everyone says this until they become parents. Then they work as hard as they can to give their own kids every advantage they can.

Sure we do, but I also insist on paying healthcare and higher education for my neighbors (who I have never met) kids too.

Re: Economic Inequality

#124
Lots of window dressing to serve up PG'a core thought:

>So let's be clear about that. Ending economic inequality would mean ending startups.

PG also called those who questioned Mark Zuckerberg's altruistic intentions "losers." In reference to Altman's bewilderment at the criticism of Zuckerberg's donation to his LLC.

I have tremendous respect for PG on startup related manners, but in terms of making a better society, I prefer those that study this sort of thing for a living.

Re: Economic Inequality

#125
The usual bizarre thought processes:

> So when I hear people saying that economic inequality is bad and should be eliminated, I feel rather like a wild animal overhearing a conversation between hunters. [...] They don't even seem clear whether they want to kill me or not.

Doesn't consider the obvious conclusion: they want to improve society to be more egalitarian. The opposite of killing/hurting anyone: no longer needing police/military to maintain a world based on radical inequality. (Police to ensure wage-slaves obey bosses for food/shelter tokens; military to ensure other countries don't build more successful societies which cause everyone to question the status quo.)

His sentiment apparently is sincere. Despite having government protecting the wealthy [1], with police and military, privileged people often fear that the dominated will beat them up. But in reality, it is the dominated who must fear armed men daily.

> You can't end economic inequality without preventing people from getting rich, and you can't do that without preventing them from starting startups.

Startup startup startup. Half the time, "startup" is the small-business boss's pet magic word to justify low wages.

An improved world can obviously have "startups"; if that means a team of people supported to automate away drudge work, research immortality drugs, etc. Note that our current system doesn't do this: nowadays, technology means we work more hours, not less. [2]

> Variation in productivity is far from the only source of economic inequality

Many highly productive people would happily work with compensation equal to everyone else. Was Einstein or Chomsky driven by the profit motive, for their greatest accomplishments? Many enormously "productive" people find it insulting to be considered animals doing it for material rewards.

To do well in a market, you must get money from those with money. Such a system predictably caters to those with more power. In contrast, many highly productive people rather focus their energy on those with no money nor power to compensate them. (Though there are startups which find ways to siphon money from government/funders for it, in return for surveillance or ensuring those in poverty remain in a handout-system...)

No, when you're successful, you need to defend it from higher-productive competition by building a "moat" [3]. This isn't new; 19th century economist Friedrich List called it "kicking away the ladder". The wealthy obviously try to do this.

[1] Adam Smith: "Till there be property there can be no government, the very end of which is to secure wealth, and to defend the rich from the poor.")

[2] Anyway, real tech advances come from the government sector: taxpayers. Then it's handed to private power to reap the profit. http://marianamazzucato.com/the-entrepreneurial-state/

[3] YC's leadership literally look for a "moat". https://www.quora.com/How-does-YCombinator-affect-the-succes...

Re: Economic Inequality

#126
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. Before the woodworker builds the chair, they have some wood. The value of the wood is less than the value of the chair. So building the chair increases the total value of the economy. The actual sale of the chair to someone else is a NOOP, it’s just shuffling assets around.

> The actual sale of the chair to someone else is a NOOP, it’s just shuffling assets around. Nope, because the chair in the woodworker's posession is worth less to him than dollars, and the dollars in the customer's posession are worth less to him than the chair. The actual sale leaves everyone better off. The woodcutter, the truck drivers who transported the wood, the factor who bundled and graded it, the woodworker…

And yet, in an efficient market, the woodworker charges almost exactly what the dollars are worth to the customer. And the customer pays no more than what the chair is worth to the woodworker. So they don’t “both benefit.”

As to whether the industry is artificially constrained, I am not arguing for artificial constraint, so I don’t need to respond to that. My point was that making a chair creates wealth. That's true whether you make a chair for yourself, or for someone else.

Re: Economic Inequality

#127
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that more offensive? What if they were all startup founders or created companies that made profound and positive change? At what point is the cross-over between being reasonably and unreasonably wealthy? If they have too much money and give most of it away, is that better than continuing to create new ventures that could make a difference? This economic inequality feels similar to racism. Why should a very wea…

These sorts of discussions always go downhill because they very quickly turn into defending (and attacking) people as if their identity is inextricably linked to their wealth, which means that policy discussions are read (and sometimes written) as personal attacks. Can we do better than that, please? I don't see a claim that any of these folks are bad people for their money. Gates, for instance, is doing extraordinar…

In a capitalist system, you become wealthy by creating value for people in mutually beneficial and consensual transactions. Tax discourages that kind of value creation. You can try to hide this effect by using really large numbers (they'll still have $500M!) but that's deceptive because, even if their motivation wouldn't have been affected (which I disagree with), these uber-wealthy people are the exception, not the norm. You can't base a tax system on taxing them alone.

Re: Economic Inequality

#128
"The evolution of technology is one of the most powerful forces in history."

I find this part funny. It seems that one of the most powerful forces in history can be stopped just raising taxes.

Re: Economic Inequality

#129
post #44
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. There would still be sufficient economic motivations for startups and startup founders in a world where startup founders were taxed at a 75% rate.

Perhaps, but as the higher the tax rate, the higher the greater the incentive to avoid taxes. As PG mentioned in his essay, when the marginal tax rate was at 90%, there was a lot more tax avoidance and lavish, wasteful benefits companies offered their employees in lieu of wages (health care, housing, first class flights). If the tax rate were high enough, the government would actually bring in less revenue as there i…

A lot of those lavish benefits would inject money into to the system instead of sitting in an offshore account. That helps everyone.

As Paul Krugman says, "your spending is my income", and visa-versa

Re: Economic Inequality

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "More wealth than half the world's population" That's such a disingenuous statistic. A huge number of people, including a huge number of very well off people, have a negative net worth due to debt. I don't have a car payment or a mortgage, so I have more wealth than at least 30% of America, over 100 million people, combined! It's disappointing to see that FiveThirtyEight has now become just another outfit twisting…

It's one metric. And yes, one of its weak points is that my student loans making me less wealthy than the debt-free homeless person is (of course ) not the whole story. But that's one narrow slice. On the scale of 80 people with billions upon billions vs. half of everyone else , it's hardly a disingenuous statistic.

The only reason to use net-worth for such a statistic is to have demagogic sound bites. Most people have negative or very low self-worth because of totally normal and serviceable debt, regardless of whether they're poor or well off. Net worth, i.e. wealth, ignores future earning potential, which is most people's main asset. Repeating the statistic again doesn't change that.
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