The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl • Hacker News Board

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#181

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 4:31 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #176

bimble wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here's the thing - while both groups are right if you take them at face value, there's no reason to take GamerGate at face value anymore. It's feminism vs. anti-feminism now. The anti-GG crowd, as a whole, complains about GG and calls them misogynists. They can be annoying. The GG crowd peppers anti-GG people with with threats, doxxes them, and sends SWAT teams to their homes and the homes of their relatives. T…

Citation needed. The behavior you describe is much more prevalent in today's left-authoritarian communities than it is among cultural libertarian ones (of which one example is GamerGate). The anti-SJW side has never gotten a CEO of a tech company fired.

"Anti-GamerGate" people didn't get Brendan Eich fired, but pro-GamerGate people did indeed send SWAT teams to people's houses. What you're doing here is employing a sleight of hand to try to score points. If you'd been a little more creative with your terms, you probably could have swept the Khmer Rouge into your opposing side, and blamed Randi Harper for genocide as well.

So I voted your comment down for its lack of style.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#182

Post by tptacek » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #167

5F36B5F62640 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her blocking tool is idiotic. It blocks people whose only offense it to follow more than one account on Twitter from a small list of accounts that she considers to be GG leaders. It ends up blocking many anti-GG people who are following those accounts because they want to know what their opponents are up to.

Her blocking tool is more than just idiotic, it was a toxic, polarising firebomb tossed into an already vicious war, one that forced everyone involved to pick a side and stop even listening to what the other side was actually saying and doing by blocking them from seeing one side unless they did. It forced everyone to base their views of the other side on the most vitrolic descriptions their own site could come up wi…

You people sure take Twitter block lists seriously. There are people I like who I have blocked on Twitter, just to keep me from getting engaged in vituperative bullshit in the middle of my workdays.

I should apologize to them for poisoning them with fire (is I think the metaphor you're using, right?).

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#183

Post by dogma1138 » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #173

dogma1138 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What this has to do with software development? A COC has nothing to do with software development it's not enforcing anything related to actually committing code and collaborating. A COC forces you to be compliant to it every where on social media, on regular media, in person, on private forums... everywhere - this is thought police. A COC forces you to "hide" your personal beliefs, ideas, who you vote for who you don…

This thread is the most depressing thing I've read on Hacker News in months. I completely agree with you, dogma1138. You and I appear to be only ones who don't view the world through justice-colored glasses and who understand that attempting to enforce strict ideological conformity is self-defeating.

Most people tend to stay away from such threads as they will quickly get downvoted and flagged and will either be buried like most comments on this post that or will be deleted like some of the early comments here that got stomped over. People tend to downvote comments that they do not agree with (regardless of HN rules) which leads to either self censorship (not commenting in the first place or deletion of comments that get a few down-votes) or actual censorship as comments which get downvoted to -10 get buried by the HN system.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#184

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #183

rewqfdsa wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread is the most depressing thing I've read on Hacker News in months. I completely agree with you, dogma1138. You and I appear to be only ones who don't view the world through justice-colored glasses and who understand that attempting to enforce strict ideological conformity is self-defeating.

Most people tend to stay away from such threads as they will quickly get downvoted and flagged and will either be buried like most comments on this post that or will be deleted like some of the early comments here that got stomped over. People tend to downvote comments that they do not agree with (regardless of HN rules) which leads to either self censorship (not commenting in the first place or deletion of comments…

> (regardless of HN rules)

Please can you show me the HN rule that tells people how to downvote? Specifically, the rule that tells people not to downvote for disagreement?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

> I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347

> Downvoting has always been used to express disagreement.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691

> IIRC we first had this conversation about a month after launch. Downvotes have always been used to express disagreement. Or more precisely, a negative score has: users seem not to downvote something they disagree with if it already has a sufficiently negative score.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#185

Post by Amezarak » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

lillian-lemmer wrote: post #39

kev009 wrote: post #6

I know most of the people involved in this and it's just a shit sandwich. Randi wanted a person crucified, that's not how companies and foundations function, and thankfully so. I hope she finds success in new endeavors and am sad she had to leave under gross circumstance.

A woman wanted recourse for feeling unsafe because of the horribleness someone was spewing. Any real recourse. I outline this in my other comments. I was there for the entire ordeal. They tolerated every infraction with no consequence.

You don't get to have people punished simply because you feel unsafe. That's absurd. What if your post makes me feel unsafe? Peoples feelings are subjective, people are different, some people have a hair-trigger and others don't care, some people read a lot into words and other people take them at face value.

The only reason this individual should have been punished by FreeBSD folks for this alleged harassment is if it was against FreeBSD rules, it occurred in FreeBSD channels or forums, and there was a consensus among other people that it actually constituted harassment.

Otherwise, you just have a weapon you can wield to silence all civil discourse (because everyone has a job or a hobby somewhere they don't want to lose) you don't like by claiming you feel unsafe or harassed.

And after reading the sources mentioned in this thread, your and Randi's description of events is, to put it very mildly, one-sided. You may win some support from the people who don't dig down, but you're alienating allies with these tactics. I was a proud supporter and ally for about ten years, but over the past year or so I've grown more and more disillusioned. More and more it seems like there's nothing worth fighting for. I would certainly not want to appear to support the hatefulness and bullying Randi has engaged in publicly over this and other issues.

FreeBSD is, frankly, better off without the politics and drama.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#186

Post by engi_nerd » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #178

engi_nerd wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no feelings of transphobia whatsoever and it's only within the past year or so that I learned that "tranny" is offensive. This is not me saying that his comment wasn't transphobic (because how would I know? but you certainly would) I'm merely lamenting my past ignorance.

Congratulations! Your past views are incompatible with the present mob. You are now disqualified from running a technology company.

Well, I never put much stock in mob thinking, so that's okay.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#187

Post by handelaar » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

kev009 wrote: post #116

awesomerobot wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not how companies and foundations function What? If a co-worker started disparaging me on Facebook and sharing private chat logs publicly... they'd be reprimanded at the very least, and if the behavior continued they'd be gone. This is exactly why companies have HR policies.

They would be quietly let go

No, out here in the real world they'd be terminated immediately for gross misconduct, and feel lucky if they exited the building on foot instead of head-first.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#188

Post by Amezarak » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #145

dietrichepp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? She says she was a committer. > Eventually, with the help of the dev community answering some of my basic questions and with Colin reviewing my code, I finally found my place in the project. I was still a senior sysadmin, but I got really angry because I couldn’t install FreeBSD from a usb thumbdrive. This seemed so easy. So, I drank some scotch (probably too much scotch) and started digging…

Its unfortunate the question was flagged. For example lets say Don Armstrong from Debian retired; he's done an excellent job at a stressful job but all jobs eventually end of course. You could look at the Debian wiki and say, OK we need to recruit qty one listmaster team member and you can use DDPO to look up a list of packages he maintained and someone needs to look after his former pkgs X Y and Z, etc. Debian caref…

At least according to alleged FreeBSD developers on Reddit, she hasn't committed any code in three years and wasn't responsible for anything.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#189

Post by bbradley406 » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #86

dang wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's strange that this disappeared from the front page so suddenly Users flagged it.

Do you do any analysis of use and abuse of flags? It certainly seems like there's a phenomenon of stories pointing out issues in open-source communities being flagged off the front page very quickly. Given that the subject seems on-topic for HN and there's good discussion (and bad discussion, too, but you've been on top of it), it seems some consideration should be given to whether the flags are abusive. (In particul…

It's not a phenomenon; users are not out to oppress or censor anyone. These types of stories are terrible in terms of quality of discussion, and provide almost nothing to satisfy one's intellectual curiosity. This whole thread is he said / she said feces-flinging, and many people would rather have interesting articles on the front page. It's essentially tabloid gossip, and has been discussed to death on reddit / twitter already. I'm not taking sides here, I could care less about GG or a dev who gets into twitter fights. Here's what would be useful to post instead:

- Github link to a crowd-sourced code of conduct anyone can help improve

- A compilation of useful tips for interacting with / contributing to open source projects

I lost braincells reading this thread, and that's not why I visit HN.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#190

Post by belorn » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

bimble wrote: post #140

Pharaoh2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the hate in GG, it's a anonymous/pseudo anonymous mob on the internet. It seems hate is the default language of the louder minority. Somehow, not surprising really, the loudest people are also the worst. On the pro-GG side, look at the supposedly pro-gg websites that have sprung up that sell things or review things basically do everything that they are saying the current status quo is doing wrongly or unethic…

Well, here's the thing - while both groups are right if you take them at face value, there's no reason to take GamerGate at face value anymore. It's feminism vs. anti-feminism now. The anti-GG crowd, as a whole, complains about GG and calls them misogynists. They can be annoying. The GG crowd peppers anti-GG people with with threats, doxxes them, and sends SWAT teams to their homes and the homes of their relatives. T…

Death threats, doxxes, and SWATing has been done against people who are anti-GG, pro-GG, and third-parties who simply makes comments about both sides. There is no clean hands anywhere in this, and both anti-GG and pro-GG are constantly claiming that people who commit such acts are not part of their movements.

Mobs don't take responsibility for their actions, which is why we always see people talk about one side being made from evil and one side being made from good (if annoying).