The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl • Hacker News Board

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#141

Post by VLM » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:23 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #82

Tomte wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with Codes of Conduct is mostly how to write them. The Swing dancing scene had a big scandal this year, and everywhere CoCs are popping up. But do you really need to write down that an adult (quite old, in that case) dance teacher is not allowed to sleep with just-teenage dance students? Or that racist remarks are not welcome? No, so you adopt very broad language. Usually something like "harassing", "makin…

I mean, we do, evidently, have a much bigger problem in the open-source community. It would be nice if we didn't, but there's no easy way around it. So there are really two options: one, hope the community stops existing or stops having influence (unlikely), or two, accept that, yes, we do need to spell out every little detail about behavior as if people don't know appropriate behavior on their own. Nobody advocating…

There is no community, just a mob, if there are no shared values WRT behavior. On the other side there is no justice system if the system is defined based on one persons feelings while ignoring the survival or existence or basic human rights of the other participants. Two sides of the same coin of lack of a community. You can't just sweep up a mob, an almost randomly selected jury, call it a community, and assume it'll work like an actual community. You'll just get anarchy, some will provide intimidation, some will provide legalistic supremacist totalitarianism, most will watch the drama from the sidelines and shake their heads and hope neither side rises to power.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#142

Post by engi_nerd » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:30 AM UTC

lillian-lemmer wrote: post #30

geofft wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so if that's true, then by treating him as a legitimate member of the community and not making any sort of statement against his views, the FreeBSD project is giving him attention, and they should stop doing that. Which is exactly what Randi asked for. It's one thing if you keep your horrible-person persona separate from your technical one (as e.g. the Strange Loop thing earlier this year), although I still think…

He should have been expelled the second he was harshly transphobic to me, e.g., calling me a "tranny." I'm the trans woman Randi talks about in that article. There were many times he should have been kicked out, but in the end nobody cared enough about women's issues, or there was no real recourse for such. But since that didn't happen, Randi is trying to bring attention to the fact that the above isn't how things wo…

I have no feelings of transphobia whatsoever and it's only within the past year or so that I learned that "tranny" is offensive. This is not me saying that his comment wasn't transphobic (because how would I know? but you certainly would)

I'm merely lamenting my past ignorance.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#143

Post by freebsdgirl » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:33 AM UTC

kev009 wrote: post #139

freebsdgirl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. I've never talked to him (or, for that matter, the person that said they know all the parties involved).

s/all/most. I'm not notable and am much newer than you to the community.

If you aren't a part of FreeBSD core or the FreeBSD Foundation, then you don't know much about what's been happening at all. They haven't released any information about this publicly, and it wasn't talked about much at all on the core reports.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#144

Post by MaysonL » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

andallas wrote: post #97

eeZi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that she didn't, since it emphasizes that this is not about that particular conflict, but the way it has been handled. She could have mentioned his name in an effort to make him look bad (this post will probably get a lot of attention), but she didn't.

ahh, thanks for clarifying, wasn't sure if you were implying something else. In regards to your question, yes things got bad, unfortunately what is hard to see from the outside, is that the vast majority of the harassment was originally done by outside third parties who just wanted to troll two groups. They harassed some people (mostly women) then said they were part of GamerGate. This wasn't even remotely true, and…

Did anybody in GamerGate ever criticize any male gaming journalists? Citation requested.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#145

Post by VLM » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:45 AM UTC

dietrichepp wrote: post #24

thanksalot wrote: post #19

What did she contribute to FreeBSD? It appears she was involved with marketing and after bullying a bunch of nerds who fought back FreeBSD didn't want her using their trademark.

Did you read the article? She says she was a committer. > Eventually, with the help of the dev community answering some of my basic questions and with Colin reviewing my code, I finally found my place in the project. I was still a senior sysadmin, but I got really angry because I couldn’t install FreeBSD from a usb thumbdrive. This seemed so easy. So, I drank some scotch (probably too much scotch) and started digging…

Its unfortunate the question was flagged. For example lets say Don Armstrong from Debian retired; he's done an excellent job at a stressful job but all jobs eventually end of course. You could look at the Debian wiki and say, OK we need to recruit qty one listmaster team member and you can use DDPO to look up a list of packages he maintained and someone needs to look after his former pkgs X Y and Z, etc. Debian carefully documents all delegations on the wiki and there's a bazillion automated tools to track. Presumably freebsd has something... something containing whatever Randi had ongoing responsibility over or was currently in process. That would certainly provide a measurable documentable level of damage (... X and Y will be delayed by an unknown period and Z is now not being looked at)

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#146

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC

MaysonL wrote: post #144

andallas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahh, thanks for clarifying, wasn't sure if you were implying something else. In regards to your question, yes things got bad, unfortunately what is hard to see from the outside, is that the vast majority of the harassment was originally done by outside third parties who just wanted to troll two groups. They harassed some people (mostly women) then said they were part of GamerGate. This wasn't even remotely true, and…

Did anybody in GamerGate ever criticize any male gaming journalists? Citation requested.

They don't limit their idiocy to misogynistic attacks on women.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#147

Post by DanBC » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 3:05 AM UTC

engi_nerd wrote: post #137

Here's what confuses me. What actually happened to her? Without any context, all this can really be is her word against someone else's. She says she forwarded on relevant harassment incidents, but without context, the actual truth of what happened to her is unknown. >Don’t tell people to stay quiet about abuse. This removes them from their support network of friends and family. Didn't they just tell her to stop talki…

> I find it amusing that someone who has written a tool that allows you to filter out a specific block of individuals (as trollish as they may be) can write this post at all. The cynical side of me thinks the attitude shown here is, "Hear me, but here's a way you can systematically ignore people that I fundamentally disagree with".

Give me your twitter handle, and your employer's email address, and I'll send 800 death threat tweets and I'll spend weeks bombarding your employer with stuff.

One thing that is often said to the victims of trolls is "just ignore it" (we see that in this thread), so she wrote a tool that allows her to just ignore it and you're telling her that she's wrong.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#148

Post by engi_nerd » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 3:09 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #147

engi_nerd wrote: post #137

Here's what confuses me. What actually happened to her? Without any context, all this can really be is her word against someone else's. She says she forwarded on relevant harassment incidents, but without context, the actual truth of what happened to her is unknown. >Don’t tell people to stay quiet about abuse. This removes them from their support network of friends and family. Didn't they just tell her to stop talki…

> I find it amusing that someone who has written a tool that allows you to filter out a specific block of individuals (as trollish as they may be) can write this post at all. The cynical side of me thinks the attitude shown here is, "Hear me, but here's a way you can systematically ignore people that I fundamentally disagree with". Give me your twitter handle, and your employer's email address, and I'll send 800 deat…

It also allows people to block certain hashtags, thus blocking an entire category of people, both good and bad.

I am certainly not saying that she should ignore harassment. Let me be clear: harassment is not okay.

But I couldn't help reflecting on the irony that she has also produced a tool that allows you to filter out an entire category of people on twitter.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#149

Post by SliderUp » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 3:11 AM UTC

You can, and lots of people will, wave their hands and ignore/belittle FreeBSDGirl's account. Certainly the trolls will.

But, it is just another example that the larger tech community has a problem. GamerGate et al, they are not fantasies. Women who want to create, same as any developer, getting SWAT teams sent to their homes, this stuff is real, and indicates a real problem.

Ask yourself, are you helping fix this behavior? Because if not, then you are part of the problem.

Re: The Developer Formerly Known as FreeBSDGirl

#150

Post by 5F36B5F62640 » Fri, Jan 01, 2016, 3:37 AM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #3

She's talking about some guy and his "campaign to legalize rape". I thought she was exaggerating or maybe misunderstanding something. Sure, this guy is probably an asshole, but legalizing rape, come on! I followed the link and... it is kind of almost entertaining. He means it. Literally. You can't stop reading that trainwreck of an argument, because it gets worse and worse. And then you've lost all hope in mankind. I…

> I followed the link and... it is kind of almost entertaining. He means it. Literally.

He means it in the same way Jonathan Swift meant that cannibalism should be legalized and the Irish should be allowed to sell their children as food in "A Modest Proposal" [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal