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Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

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321–330 of 384 posts

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#321

i am turned off when the criticisms towards windows, whilst valid, typify the out-of-touch-with-reality-ness of many linux fanboys. real world users do not notice, much less care about these issues, nor want them fixed, nor would their user experience be significantly improved by addressing them. along similar lines they barely notice that linux exists at all. there are good reasons why linux dominates the backend sp…

What planet are you on? Of course real world users notice these issues. It's just that real world users eventually realise Linux isn't going to change so they go back to Windows (see Linus's various "I'm doing it right; shut up" comments on security, stable driver ABIs, etc.).

Earth. you might want to come back down to it...

a minuscule proportion will complain about those things.

the vast bulk of real world users haven't even tried linux or know it exists.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#322
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Beware. I went out of my way to get an Ubuntu certified laptop[1]. It took me months to get it to a usable state. Why didn't you return it and get -say- a Thinkpad? (Were you -perhaps- just curious how shitty the "Ubuntu Certified Laptop" program is?) It clearly failed the "Fitness for advertised purpose" test. AFAIK -if you're in the US- the seller can't refuse to accept your return... unless it was sold as-is. >…

> Run screaming if the video card is made by Nvidia. In my experience, it's the opposite. 5-6 years ago, ATI was the friendly one and nvidia gave you hell trying to get it to work. Now it's flipped - the ATI cards I've tried just plain don't work, whereas the nvidia ones will work, and with a few choice harsh words, will work well. Just my anecdata, though, and this is with desktop cards, not laptops (I use thinkpads…

Are the ATI cards you've been using the absolute newest ones, or a couple of generations back?

Also, are you using the closed-source or the open-source ATI drivers?

And, are you using Ubuntu, or are you using some other distro? (My experience with non-LTS Ubuntu has been... substantially less than stellar over the past several years.)

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#323

I stopped using Linux as my primary desktop OS around 2012. Until then I was an Arch user with my own desktop environment built on StumpWM and a hodge-podge of hand-selected tools. There was no Gnome or KDE in my setup. I liked it quite a bit. I used Ubuntu on my laptops since I wanted to spend less time administering drivers and arcane configuration formats. This is a good list. I just got tired of the configuration…

Yep. I'm glad that someone compiles a list like this every year so I'm not tempted to lose another week trying Linux again.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#324
Interesting list.

One of the biggest issues for me personally is the split effort. There are >300 distributions actively maintained, 300 projects whose sole purpose it is to package the kernel and some userland-stuff to make a usable operating system and provide for update mechanisms. 300 projects who spend resources on creating documentation, websites, giving support to users, ...

And the simple truth is: It does not matter too much which distribution you use, far too much weight is put on that. How much of what you do is distribution-specific? The type of init-system (mostly not important for a Desktop), the update mechanism, packages available, available/supported Desktop Environments / Window Managers, anything I forgot?

Most of the time you are running a browser, editor, terminal, video player, torrent client, openssh, steam, are using some version of python, ruby, perl, php, ... it quite simply does not matter whether you do these things on Fedora, Ubuntu, openSUSE, ArchLinux, Gentoo or FreeBSD.

Linus Torvalds described it in a similar manner once (too lazy to look for the link, but basically something like "I don't care too much about what distribution I use, I mainly work on the kernel anyways")

We are users, as such we use an Operating System in order to use programs.

The fragmentation probably mostly is rooted in the fact that it is quite easy to create your own distribution, and that many out there are head-strong people who are not patient enough to work their way up a command chain (regarding distributions with a democratic structure) or to succumb to what one dictator is saying. And some projects are just boring to work on, for example GUI-stuff or the code-monster Xorg.

I would not want to bundle all 300 distributions into 1, but (and this of course boils down to my opinion) 20 or so would do. It is important to have alternatives, like non-systemd distributions, rolling releases, source-based distributions, et cetera, but 300...

And if the focus is less on having 300+ distributions and more on making 20 or so distributions great, quality would rise without a doubt, not only ease of use, but also support, documentation, et cetera.

btw: Visited this page from Firefox, was greeted by the following:

Reported Web Forgery!

This web page at linuxfonts.narod.ru has been reported as a web forgery and has been blocked based on your security preferences.

Web forgeries are designed to trick you into revealing personal or financial information by imitating sources you may trust.

Entering any information on this web page may result in identity theft or other fraud.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#325
post #62

He's right. Many of the driver problems come from the fact that Linux finally worked on the desktop about the time desktop machines were replaced by laptops. Desktops with slots tended to have relatively well-defined hardware, and plugging in third party hardware was normal. This is much less true for laptops. OS development for laptops requires that laptop. It needs a Q/A organization which has one of everything you…

> The monolithic Linux kernel is just too big. What is it now, 20,000,000 lines? There's no hope of debugging that. It shows. The Linux kernel is about 20MSLOC. The Windows kernel is about 50MSLOC. IIRC, OS X used to be ~80KSLOC. Problems with debugging are endemic to any monolithic kernel. Neither Windows nor OS X is easier to debug technologically , but Microsoft and Apple both have many employees and lots of money…

"...making their OS specific to their computers..."

As a non-Linux open source project OS user, I am continually faced with driver deficiencies as a result of hardware specs being under NDA.

A recurring idea I have which I am here sharing for the first time (apologies!) is: why not just pick a single item of hardware and build an open source, free OS project around it?

Why? Hopefully, more control, to the extent possible (notwithstanding Intel ME, etc.). Coreboot, support for as many peripherals a possible, etc. Most importantly, the elimination of the issue of hardware support and the notion of a list of "supported hardware".

Why not? Performance, latest advances, etc.

Hasn't this been done? Maybe. OpenWRT, etc.? But my understanding is that the use of Linux on this router was initially the non-public work of a company, Linksys, and the open sourcing by Cisco was neither anticipated nor intentional.

How is my idea different? The project would be free, open source, but intentionally focused on a _single_ target. Big tradeoff, but maybe some interesting gains.

To be clear, I like the idea of hardware that is more or less "OS agnostic", e.g., RPi and booting from SD card.

But I am tired of watching volunteers struggle to keep up with the latest hardware (many thanks to the OpenBSD and FreeBSD contributors who write drivers for networking, etc.), or having to settle for binary blobs.

Maybe I am just dreaming but I could forsee such a project potentially growing into a symbiotic relationship with some manufacturer if the OS developed a sufficiently large, growing user base. And these users were all purchasing a very specific item(s) of hardware, known to be supported by this OS.

If you comment, please remember I am not a Linux user. And hardware support is not quite the same under BSD. As such, it is something I often have to think about and cannot just take for granted.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#326
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Wayland doesn't dictate anything, and that's the problem! It is the moral equivalent of a glorified framebuffer. Number of subjects relevant in today interfaces interactions? I'm not sure there are any. Meanwhile graphic/interaction stacks on other systems concentrate on what is really needed by advances in tech and usages like HighDPI / mixed DPI / responsive GUI while updating their existing tech (e.g. RemoteD…

> What does Wayland provides in term of modern usages with modern tech? More direct and simpler (and therefore efficient) way to deal with drawing. X is bloated with tons of overhead and obsolete legacy stuff. Here is a good talk about it: (The Real Story Behind Wayland and X) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44

Very interesting.

I'm glad they were sufficiently pushed to eventually start thinking about remoting.

I get that X protocol was not that good -- but I'm still not convinced that their model is, not even talking about future proof, suitable for present needs; you have to at least provision for multi-dpi, touch and changing form-factors; you also have to provision for multi-gpu more seriously (his answer: client pb and very difficult) and multimedia (sound synchro, ideally including in remoting cases).

I'm also not 100% convinced that the argument that gedit round-trips too much is a good one. You have to rewrite toolkit to use Wayland anyway, so why not comparing that approach to a mere cleanup of the way they use X?

And to finish, you will still need quasi perfect retro-compatibility with X for lots of users.

So if eventually all of that is handled properly, why not, and given how he said they orient the protocol descriptively more than imperatively this is possible that this can be added in a second time without falling again in X situation full of workarounds, but even in this best case scenario it will still be very late to the party, especially if they feel so much in the mood of stuffs like touchpad driver rewrite (why is that not in a common lower layer anyway?...). And even then, this will only go as far as the client who render every pixel will be able to do anyway... I get that this is more or less what is largely already done anyway by some software, but guess what else is also done today? Using X... so not a really good reason when you are already breaking everything anyway.

And also guess what a really efficient remote protocol focused on bitmaps would intrinsically be kind of equivalent to for a lot of use cases? Describing transformation operations on previous images already known by the server. There are tons of operations which today exists and that are reimplemented in web browsers as hacks of e.g. javascript and tilled jpegs; either future "display" stacks are powerful enough to model them efficiently, or we abandon all hopes and the native graphic stack should just be a glorified frame buffer and the real UI should be implemented in a browser -- after all, that's also what is partly already done!

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Microsoft and Apple both have many employees and lots of money invested compared to Linux There are a lot of people who are paid to work on the kernel full time from Red Hat, Google, IBM and many others. If I had to guess I'd say there are probably more than the other two, it would be interesting to find out. But if you include people where it's not 100% of their job, but still an official part of their job, I'd say…

> Red Hat, Google, IBM and many others And they are all working on desktop\Laptop support right? Linux is great in the data center because it has big guns behind it in the data center. Linux runs well on cell phones because Google put in the effort. As soon as someone is willing and able to put in the effort on desktop Linux, it will be as good as it is in those other areas.

I think everyone can agree that Linux's biggest shortcomings on desktops/laptops are the graphical and audio part. So, even though I agree with "As soon as someone is willing and able to put in the effort on desktop Linux, it will be as good as it is in those other areas." I would replace "someone" with "every vendor".

I feel like most vendors (NVIDIA/ATI/Wacom/whatnot) concentrate much more of their effort into supporting Windows and even OSX becasuse thay's their audience.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that NVIDIA/ATI work closely together with Microsoft because od Direct X[citation needed, though]. I had the opportunity to work with Direct X (the new API) and I found it much more pleasant than working with OpenGL (even though I ended up using OGL in the end; I used Windows and DX to simplify prototyping, because doing the same thing in OGL required much more dev time, at first atleast).

EDIT: Also, let's not forget how most of the majority of linux developer community neglects GUI and the overall end-user friendliness, and how the environment is in most cases quite hostile towards UX/GUI designers in general. There are, of course, exceptions, but those are few.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#328
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I solved it and all of my wireless-networking issues by installing Intel wireless cards in all of my computers. Broadcom and Atheros have always given me problems.

Does Intel make USB bluetooth sticks? If my laptop didn't come with a combo miniPCIe card I doubt the necessary antenna is there. In a desktop, I looked for mPCIe - PCIe x1 adapters with lots of antennas but I can't really find any in low profile. So... how did you do that?

For desktop, perhaps the Gigabyte GC-WB867D-I?

Specs: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5157

Price: https://pcpartpicker.com/part/gigabyte-wireless-network-card...

It's basically an Intel 7260 Wireless-AC/Bluetooth chip plus a PCIe adapter.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much, never had a problem with it.

my laptop does not have middle button. so I have to do a weird left-right button click. Very inconvenient for me. I truly envy the OSX people just on this one aspect.

shift-insert works in X if you can't middle click. In gvim too, out-of-the-box if you're in insert mode.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#330
post #62

He's right. Many of the driver problems come from the fact that Linux finally worked on the desktop about the time desktop machines were replaced by laptops. Desktops with slots tended to have relatively well-defined hardware, and plugging in third party hardware was normal. This is much less true for laptops. OS development for laptops requires that laptop. It needs a Q/A organization which has one of everything you…

> The monolithic Linux kernel is just too big. What is it now, 20,000,000 lines? There's no hope of debugging that. It shows. That makes no sense. Most of that are drivers and platforms you won't ever use. And some forms of symbolic checkers exists for Linux (maybe not that advanced as for the Windows kernelspace, though, I don't know -- although even simple local heuristic checks are quite useful to check automatica…

"Most of that are drivers and platforms you won't ever use"

That's the point -- developers can't test all possible hardware configurations and resulting driver mixes. Some of the most often used architectures and configurations usually work pretty well out of a box, but if you had something a little more exotic, prepare to get your hands dirty. Honestly, I don't see a solution to this problem, unless some "openness" is sacrificed by signing drivers (Microsoft style).

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