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Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

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Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#111

Post by gozur88 »

luckydude wrote: post #108
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

I get the spreadsheet. I get that there should not be two answers. What I'd ask you is where is your moral compass? Where do you think the taxes should be?

Taxes and morality have nothing to do with each other. Individuals and corporations have a legal duty to pay duly constituted taxes. Nothing more.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#112

Post by gozur88 »

adventured wrote: post #36
wavefunction wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People pay their taxes, generally. Corporations on the other hand... Well many pay their taxes as well, if I'm being fair.

Very few corporations in the US can dance around jurisdictions to avoid high tax rates like Apple & Co can. To be fair, most American corporations pay very high tax rates compared to the rest of the world, and almost none of them as a percentage are able to avoid paying those high rates. The median corporate income tax rate, is higher than the median individual income tax rate.

Yes. The current situation heavily favors multinationals over wholly domestic corporations. In almost every country, but particularly in the US. That's why "inversions" are all the rage - if you aren't a subsidiary of a corporation in a low-tax country you almost have to become one.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#113

Post by madeofpalk »

wavefunction wrote: post #16
bpodgursky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

People pay their taxes, generally. Corporations on the other hand... Well many pay their taxes as well, if I'm being fair.

But people try and minimise their taxes as much as possible.

Taxes that corporations pay are more complicated and they have more legal avenues to minimise tax payable.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#114

Post by Pyxl101 »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #92
bpodgursky wrote: post #8

It's great how we're living in a world where tax codes are so idiotic and complex that it takes long lawsuits to figure out what tax is actually due. It's not about following the letter of the law; it's about following the letter of the law, avoiding the court of public opinion, and coughing up whatever is necessary to stop the complaints when some politician wants to distract people from their incompetence and whip…

Don't forget that many of these large companies paid off the politicians to ensure there were these loopholes to exploit in the first place.

> Don't forget that many of these large companies paid off the politicians to ensure there were these loopholes to exploit in the first place.

Which companies did that? Can you provide a link to more details?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#115

Post by gozur88 »

beatpanda wrote: post #45
iofj wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know the answer. Because all governments feel they should spend that money instead of Apple. And they can take it, so they should. And the more left-leaning part of the aisle has this idea that they will get to decide what that money will be spent on. So they support this. (I'm not rightist, in fact I'm probably extreme left by American standards, but I just don't believe the government is on the people's side…

Yeah, or, Apple benefits handsomely from money spent on their behalf by the federal and local governments (e.g. the roads and public transit infrastructure serving their headquarters, the funding for the public universities and subsidized loans for private universities from which they draw their employees), but apparently doesn't feel any obligation for funding those benefits. It's not about "feeling that they can sp…

>Yeah, or, Apple benefits handsomely from money spent on their behalf by the federal and local governments (e.g. the roads and public transit infrastructure serving their headquarters, the funding for the public universities and subsidized loans for private universities from which they draw their employees), but apparently doesn't feel any obligation for funding those benefits.

It's hard to see any way to do the accounting such that Apple doesn't already pay for that and more.

And if you're going to start doing that kind of accounting, shouldn't governments credit Apple with the personal income taxes Apple employees pay?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#116

Post by gozur88 »

nodamage wrote: post #68
npizzolato wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is all that money actually made outside the US? Or is it made outside of the US in the same spirit as how Hollywood movies never make a profit?[1][2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-holl...

To my understanding, this is money that is actually made outside the US. If Apple (US) sells an iPhone to an American customer, they will pay US corporate income tax on the profits from that sale. However, if Apple (Italy) sells an iPhone to an Italian customer, the 'double Irish' arrangement lets them avoid paying corporate income taxes on those profits. There are two issues here: 1. Some might argue that because Ap…

>If Apple (US) sells an iPhone to an American customer, they will pay US corporate income tax on the profits from that sale.

Except they don't, really. They use the same "double Irish" scheme in the US. Apple has offshore holding companies that own the IP for that iPhone. When a US customer buys an iPhone, much of the actual profit gets shifted to the offshore subsidiaries as an expense. That's how they ended up with $200bn offshore and only $10bn or so in the US.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#117

Post by echaozh »

madeofpalk wrote: post #110
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

Tax is a system of rules, codified in law. When you have a system of rules, I don't think it's reasonable to hold them accountable to some arbitrary second standard, nor expect them to unnecessarily hand over billions of extra dollars. Apple, and the rest of them, are following these laws. If governments are unhappy with the the amount of tax Apple pays after following the rules then they should change them.

Totally agree. Lay down better rules and let the companies decide whether to play with your rules or exit your market. Games have to be played fair.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#118

Post by JohnTHaller »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #114
JohnTHaller wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that many of these large companies paid off the politicians to ensure there were these loopholes to exploit in the first place.

> Don't forget that many of these large companies paid off the politicians to ensure there were these loopholes to exploit in the first place. Which companies did that? Can you provide a link to more details?

In addition to the usual political donations, the amount of money big tech companies put into lobbying firms like Digital Economy Group, Fipra and RLM Finsbury is pretty absurd. Heck Apple hired a top lawyer away from the European Commission that was investigating their tax irregularities because that's somehow legal at the moment.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#119

Post by supercanuck »

gozur88 wrote: post #111
luckydude wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the spreadsheet. I get that there should not be two answers. What I'd ask you is where is your moral compass? Where do you think the taxes should be?

Taxes and morality have nothing to do with each other. Individuals and corporations have a legal duty to pay duly constituted taxes. Nothing more.

> Taxes and morality have nothing to do with each other

Bullshit, the concept of fairness is a universal moral.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#120

Post by gozur88 »

supercanuck wrote: post #119
gozur88 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes and morality have nothing to do with each other. Individuals and corporations have a legal duty to pay duly constituted taxes. Nothing more.

> Taxes and morality have nothing to do with each other Bullshit, the concept of fairness is a universal moral.

The concept of fairness is so subjective it's meaningless in the context of morality. Decrying something as being "unfair" is childish.
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