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Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

forbes.com

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Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#51

Post by [deleted] »

pen2l wrote: post #4
rjayatilleka wrote: post #2

Forbes doesn't even work with an adblocker for the last couple weeks. If you want to hear about the actual settlement, here's a ReCode article: http://recode.net/2015/12/30/apple-to-pay-348-million-to-set... Not sure if the article brings up the same discussion and conclusions as the Forbes one though.

Forbes is using the 'FuckAdblock' thing... so yes, it doesn't work when you're using Adblock. But if you install the FuckFuckAdblock extension, you should be able to see the article. Here's a link to the extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fuckfuckadblock/hb...

[deleted]

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#52

Post by threeseed »

adventured wrote: post #36
wavefunction wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People pay their taxes, generally. Corporations on the other hand... Well many pay their taxes as well, if I'm being fair.

Very few corporations in the US can dance around jurisdictions to avoid high tax rates like Apple & Co can. To be fair, most American corporations pay very high tax rates compared to the rest of the world, and almost none of them as a percentage are able to avoid paying those high rates. The median corporate income tax rate, is higher than the median individual income tax rate.

It's a bit meaningless to talk about the corporate tax rate when there are so many deductions available to businesses.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#53

Post by balls187 »

pen2l wrote: post #4
rjayatilleka wrote: post #2

Forbes doesn't even work with an adblocker for the last couple weeks. If you want to hear about the actual settlement, here's a ReCode article: http://recode.net/2015/12/30/apple-to-pay-348-million-to-set... Not sure if the article brings up the same discussion and conclusions as the Forbes one though.

Forbes is using the 'FuckAdblock' thing... so yes, it doesn't work when you're using Adblock. But if you install the FuckFuckAdblock extension, you should be able to see the article. Here's a link to the extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fuckfuckadblock/hb...

Worked for me using Ad Block Plus.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#54

Post by stephengillie »

pen2l wrote: post #4
rjayatilleka wrote: post #2

Forbes doesn't even work with an adblocker for the last couple weeks. If you want to hear about the actual settlement, here's a ReCode article: http://recode.net/2015/12/30/apple-to-pay-348-million-to-set... Not sure if the article brings up the same discussion and conclusions as the Forbes one though.

Forbes is using the 'FuckAdblock' thing... so yes, it doesn't work when you're using Adblock. But if you install the FuckFuckAdblock extension, you should be able to see the article. Here's a link to the extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fuckfuckadblock/hb...

With all of the back-and-forth in this Adblock War, is anyone verifying these new extensions that can MITM you from your browser?

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#55

Post by tn13 »

guelo wrote: post #50
bpodgursky wrote: post #8

It's great how we're living in a world where tax codes are so idiotic and complex that it takes long lawsuits to figure out what tax is actually due. It's not about following the letter of the law; it's about following the letter of the law, avoiding the court of public opinion, and coughing up whatever is necessary to stop the complaints when some politician wants to distract people from their incompetence and whip…

It's only complicated because the corporations hire hordes of top-notch lawyers to figure out the optimal structure for paying the least amount of taxes by exploiting all loopholes and coming as close as possible to skirting the laws. If the corporations optimized for simplicity the corporate structures would be much different.

Corporations are trying to keep their own money. Hiring top notch lawyers is economical because they actually help them save more than what the lawyers get paid. I dont see how fault lies with the corporations.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#56

Post by benzoate »

junto wrote: post #44
derefr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A simple way to solve the problem is to levy an internet sales tax, which is the same percentage as the corporation tax that these companies should have paid if they were operating solely in that country in the first place. Ah, but how does something like Google work, then? They don't sell a product to people all over the world (where tax can be collected); people all over the world are the product, and they sell t…

Goods and services. In terms of their core business, the money they charge British companies to advertise on the Google network should be taxed and paid to the UK government. I don't understand the problem?

Because corporation tax is a tax on profit. Profit is roughly revenue - expenses. How do you ever reliably calculate Google's expenses for the UK? It's basically always going to be a pseudo made up number between total world wide expenses and 0, and shockingly they declare the highest number they think they can get away with.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#57

Post by tn13 »

jph wrote: post #10
bpodgursky wrote: post #8

It's great how we're living in a world where tax codes are so idiotic and complex that it takes long lawsuits to figure out what tax is actually due. It's not about following the letter of the law; it's about following the letter of the law, avoiding the court of public opinion, and coughing up whatever is necessary to stop the complaints when some politician wants to distract people from their incompetence and whip…

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

There is nothing moral about paying taxes. What Apple has earned belongs to Apple and in ideal world it should pay nothing to US government. US government should probably think of simplifying and lowering the tax to the extent that avoiding it becomes more expensive than paying it.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#58

Post by jph »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
jph wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Apple owes is clear to me: pay the standard U.S. corporate tax on the standard U.S. profits. Do the same for all countries. The Apple problem is that its lawyers are deliberately avoiding using current tax codes, and instead essentially claiming that Apple is based in Ireland, then playing shell games with what counts as U.S. sales, U.S. profits, and also U.S. property. Apple ends up paying ~10% U.S. tax, rather…

No! No! No! What you legally owe in taxes, in a reasonable tax structure, has NOTHING to do with your moral compass. You should be able to plug numbers into a spreadsheet and get it. I'm not saying that taxes are bad. We need tax revenue. I get that. But there should NEVER, EVER, be two legally correct answers to how much you owe. The fact that you had to spend paragraphs making your case, makes mine -- when you reso…

I agree with you and I'm updating my post to show that your position and mine are similar.

We both want a reasonable tax structure. But Apple is exploiting the unreasonableness of the tax structure, e.g. by using outdated codes, shell games, tax havens, etc.

Apple leaders have the opportunity and moral responsibility to stop exploiting, and start helping.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#59

Post by kchoudhu »

Oletros wrote: post #43
forrestthewoods wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 7 N exists because of the 2004 European Commission decision. That decision being a 497 million Euro fine. The fine was stupid when it was issued and it's ramifications were stupid when they forced Windows 7 N into existence. If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense. The fine is merely a tax that is the cost of doing business in Europe. Microsoft is willing to pay it because they still net pro…

> The fine was stupid when it was issued and it's ramifications were stupid when they forced Windows 7 N into existence. This is just opinion > If you view the fine as a tax it all makes far more sense It is not a tax, so it doesn't make sense > The fine is merely a tax that is the cost of doing business in Europe Wrong, the fine is a consequence of breaking competition laws > And Europe certainly has no issue demand…

> Wrong, the fine is a consequence of breaking competition laws

I assure you, the cost of breaking the law is factored into a spreadsheet somewhere in all corporations of note, and that this metaphorical spreadsheet is always used to make decisions.

The OP is absolutely correct when he says that fines are the cost of doing business. He's wrong when he says that this is a phenomenon associated with Europe though -- corporate amorality ultimately knows nothing of national boundaries.

Re: Apple's $348M Tax Settlement In Italy Bodes Ill For Google, Facebook, Microsoft

#60

Post by jgalt212 »

tn13 wrote: post #55
guelo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only complicated because the corporations hire hordes of top-notch lawyers to figure out the optimal structure for paying the least amount of taxes by exploiting all loopholes and coming as close as possible to skirting the laws. If the corporations optimized for simplicity the corporate structures would be much different.

Corporations are trying to keep their own money. Hiring top notch lawyers is economical because they actually help them save more than what the lawyers get paid. I dont see how fault lies with the corporations.

I assume you do understand the problem that would result if everyone could pursue every possible loophole to the maximum extent like Apple, Google, Amazon, FB, et al do.
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