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I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

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Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#121

Post by serge2k »

djtriptych wrote: post #46
rdtsc wrote: post #24

My nephew worked for Amazon in Kentucky and during a snowstorm they refused to let him stay home. He didn't feel it was safe to drive (and it wasn't). They told him he is fired. Someone even called to apologize later, but he already found work some other place. On the "good" part of Amazon at AWS, I had a laughably terrible hiring experience (I know I've told my story multiple times, sorry). They forgot to call me ba…

I want to soften this viewpoint a bit. I had similarly bungled experiences with both Facebook and Google (eventually got offers from both, accepted at Google). Missed phone calls, mistaken identity, inter-office communication problems and more. It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons.

> It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons

I have personally dropped the ball on an interview once, had the wrong time written down to meet someone. Apologized profusely when i did arrive. :/

Having interviewed with Amazon, MS, Google, and Facebook I have to say MS was by far the easiest experience of the 4. Applied, a few weeks later they contacted me, 2 weeks later I did my interview, offer a day later. Facebook and google it was more like apply wait weeks for response, wait a couple weeks for phone screen, wait a week for resposne, wait a couple weeks for a second phone screen, wait a week for response, wait a few weeks for in person, wait a couple weeks for response. Amazon was similar, but at least that was over the holidays and I actually travelled for that one.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#122

Post by marknutter »

OldSchoolJohnny wrote: post #81
marknutter wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

"It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability." Oh, you must be very young! :)

34, and I grew up poor but in a moderately wealthy suburb. I had to pay most of my way through college, and when I couldn't find a job with my degree (Physics) I learned how to program and have been making a living off that ever since. I didn't get what I have today because of privilege but you would probably see it differently.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#123

Post by Yhippa »

rdtsc wrote: post #24

My nephew worked for Amazon in Kentucky and during a snowstorm they refused to let him stay home. He didn't feel it was safe to drive (and it wasn't). They told him he is fired. Someone even called to apologize later, but he already found work some other place. On the "good" part of Amazon at AWS, I had a laughably terrible hiring experience (I know I've told my story multiple times, sorry). They forgot to call me ba…

> However, I like them as a amazon.com customer. I guess to make things awesome on the outside, those on the inside have to suffer...

Whenever I really enjoy or am afforded a major convenience by some kind of technology these days I feel guilty about how much suffering went into my enjoyment. This ranges from video games, NLP, or being able to get food at 11:30 PM on a Sunday.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#124

Post by s73v3r »

ra1n85 wrote: post #53
geofft wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was assuming that "merit" inherited from parents is undeserved, but yeah, perhaps that's unjustified. Do you have an argument that it is deserved?

Unless someone has broken the law in their process of accumulating resources, they are legally in possession of such resources.

We're not talking about legality, we're talking about deserved merit. And as you yourself have shown, one cannot really independently judge merit, as it always comes down to who is actually judging it. Making the idea of a meritocracy not really feasible.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#125

Post by serge2k »

roymurdock wrote: post #11
hoorayimhelping wrote: post #4

Skip the overly dramatic Orwellian outrage porn and go straight to the banal conclusion: > What became apparent over my time there was that, whatever the dramatisation of previous investigations, working at Amazon is just shit – but no more shit than any other mundane, badly-paid job.

Also note that the article is written by a guy in the UK who is hired for seasonal warehouse work. Not a middle manager/higher salaried employee as was the case in the NYT article that sparked the outrage.

A few articles have been written about their fulfillment center conditions. Unlike the NYT claims about white collar workers, their treatment of fulfillment center workers is well documented.

Ambulances instead of air conditioners when it was very hot. http://business.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/25/11877532-after-...

Getting sued (and winning, ugh) over forcing people to stand in line for 30+ minute security lines when coming and going from work. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-c...

Battling the unions in Germany. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/05/business/workers-of-amazon...

and just random bonus articles http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/worse_than_wal_mart_amazons_...

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#126

Post by rdtsc »

d23 wrote: post #84
rdtsc wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. You probably have a better paying job and more free time than than most people (and as a nice side effect than people who bullied you probably). The privilege mentality is thinking that you made the decision to go into tech consciously because you knew it was going to be hot in 20 years and will end up with a well paying job. But it sounds like you didn…

Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not t…

> "privilege mentality"

I see a discussion ensued ;-)

The privilege mentality I define as a worldview (or call it an attitude) where those who have the privilege (it doesn't have to be money, it could be time, social status, freedom, or health, or any other significant advantage) have a hard time understanding the position of those that don't have it.

This usually happens when talking about wealth as privilege. And manifests in examples where rich people will look with disdain at poor people and will label them as lazy or "in charge of their own fate, yet deciding not to take advantage of it" etc. This often happens because they look back at their own lives, and think they got wealthy / powerful through sheer willpower and hard work. In reality it turns out a nice inheritance helped, going to an Ivy League helped, being lucky to invest at the right time in a market worked, having the right friends at the right time worked, etc.

What has happened in that case is the privileged person re-wrote or re-interpreted their own history to make it better and more agreeable story (rather than, well I got lucky and inherited a bunch of money, it ends up with, I set up a successful hedge fund with my college buddies etc).

But I was referring to "privilege" not just as wealth but as being in the tech industry, where wages and demand is much better than other industries. Good programmers can often ask for high salaries. They can work from home, etc. That is not comparing with Donald Trumps out there, but comparing to those that work for TSA, or McDonalds or Amazon.

What often comes out of it is well meaning ideas like "teach coal miners to program" and so on, because looking back it seems like programming is pretty easy and with a bit of free time on the weekend one can easily end up with a 6 figure jobs. In reality things are different and a lot more goes into what makes a person now successful.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#127

Post by s73v3r »

threatofrain wrote: post #13

It's silly to blame Amazon for what we think is immoral behavior, as if we were going to shame Amazon into decency. Amazon is following the law here. It is the law which is indecent. We must think not about why Amazon is indecent, but rather how Amazon is lawful. In sum, Amazon should be mechanistically compelled into socially harmonious behavior, not shamed into it.

I don't see why it's silly. Just because they're doing the bare minimum doesn't mean they can't do better, especially when they very obviously have the resources to be able to.

We very much can consider whether Amazon is indecent. Whether Amazon is lawful is a decision for the government regulatory boards.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#128

Post by serge2k »

throw2048-AZ43 wrote: post #117
OldSchoolJohnny wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability." Oh, you must be very young! :)

Nice ad hominem. Let me try it too: Oh, you must be very dumb.

2/10. You have to use condescension to add insult to something innocuous, not just toss out an insult.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#129

Post by throw2048-AZ43 »

d23 wrote: post #77
rdtsc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think those people have free time after 12.5 hour days and a commute out to the middle of nowhere? I think that's what the OP called the "privilege". Those that have it, don't see why others can't do the same. It comes from having a completely different world view and priorities. That's why it is common to hear "how come they don't sit down learn to code and become full stack developers, that would b…

Yes, I had the privilege of having a basic computer with dialup as a kid. My family moved so I had no friends and was bullied constantly. For this reason, I became obsessed with the computer, learned to program, and ultimately it got me a job. I'm not sure I would describe that as the height of privilege. I spent most of my childhood living in a trailer. Plenty of people I know had access to the same thing (most of t…

Yep, that's exactly the point. Somehow in the heads of some people the process of becoming a software engineer looks like this:

1. you were born a white male 2. magic privilege stuff happened to you 3. you got a cushy job with perks you dont deserve 4. now shut up and check your privilege 5. we need less people like you here

Nowhere in this chart is tens of thousands of hours spent thinking about numbers while non-techie people went to parties to play and drink.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#130

Post by serge2k »

threatofrain wrote: post #13

It's silly to blame Amazon for what we think is immoral behavior, as if we were going to shame Amazon into decency. Amazon is following the law here. It is the law which is indecent. We must think not about why Amazon is indecent, but rather how Amazon is lawful. In sum, Amazon should be mechanistically compelled into socially harmonious behavior, not shamed into it.

Amazon could be pretty easily compelled if the white collar workers joined up with the blue collar.
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