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I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

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Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#101

Post by afarrell »

mentat wrote: post #93
mahyarm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of 'free time privilege' required to become a developer is less than the amount of 'privilege' required to become almost any other well paying profession. With software, you need a cheap computer, access to the internet and time to teach yourself. That can cost about $300 and $10/month in many places. With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. The barrier…

You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at all.

To emphasize mentat's point, you need focused time where your mind is rested and alert. This requires good, regularly-scheduled sleep. This requires nutritionally complete food (though soylent has made this much easier). This probably requires that you not be stressed out by fear of violence or eviction.

Also, don't underestimate the value of an educational environment. You can spend a lot of time banging your head against the wall if you don't have an effective way to reach out for help. A mailing list or IRC channel is only useful if you have the skill and focus to compose your question coherently.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#102

Post by afarrell »

eropple wrote: post #95
d23 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we're just misunderstanding what each other means by privilege. > why can't coal miners just start writing single page apps in React.js over a few weekends, why can't this part time middle aged mom from Walmart who was laid off as an HR person just write Android apps and make more money Absolutely, I don't think they can. They don't have the free time, and they're worn out after a long day of work. That's not t…

The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free". > If a person wa…

> It's jargon but many people try to wedge it as a normal word

Yes, this is a problem. If you push back on it, some people will say "this is Social Justice 101", completely missing the fact that an intro course spends a lot of its time teaching jargon.

> Which literally nobody does ... > A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really

Well, having been in many of these conversations, I can say that yes, there are people who use the word privilege to mean "shut up". There are people who genuinely exhibit more of an interest in clawing people down than in spreading understanding.

Understanding how privilege operates and recognizing ones own is still super-important. It is particularly important when trying design solutions (like hackerspaces, bootcamps, tutorials, etc) to social problems.

But it is also important to recognize that sometimes people just use social justice discourse as a way to feel righteous while carelessly insulting people they just don't like. It is important to be able to recognize when someone has no interest in problem solving and to disengage from conversations with those people.

Thanks for the link by the way.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#103

Post by mahyarm »

afarrell wrote: post #101
mentat wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at all.

To emphasize mentat's point, you need focused time where your mind is rested and alert. This requires good, regularly-scheduled sleep. This requires nutritionally complete food (though soylent has made this much easier). This probably requires that you not be stressed out by fear of violence or eviction. Also, don't underestimate the value of an educational environment. You can spend a lot of time banging your head a…

All the same applies to any job that requires formal education. A rested mind, good enough food, free time, a safe environment and so on.

There are also people who do not do well at all in an educational environment, and the lack of one is a benefit towards learning programming for them.

All that most people are saying is the barriers to becoming a software developer vs. other professions are lower and cheaper than most others. There are still barriers and challenges, just like everything else in improving one's life.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#104

Post by pekk »

djtriptych wrote: post #46
rdtsc wrote: post #24

My nephew worked for Amazon in Kentucky and during a snowstorm they refused to let him stay home. He didn't feel it was safe to drive (and it wasn't). They told him he is fired. Someone even called to apologize later, but he already found work some other place. On the "good" part of Amazon at AWS, I had a laughably terrible hiring experience (I know I've told my story multiple times, sorry). They forgot to call me ba…

I want to soften this viewpoint a bit. I had similarly bungled experiences with both Facebook and Google (eventually got offers from both, accepted at Google). Missed phone calls, mistaken identity, inter-office communication problems and more. It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons.

It is an industry-wide cultural problem.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#105

Post by pekk »

marknutter wrote: post #20
js8 wrote: post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

You don't just need desire and ambition to learn. You also have to convince interviewers that you are a rockstar that will be a "culture fit."

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#106

Post by pekk »

marknutter wrote: post #20
js8 wrote: post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

You don't just need desire and ambition to learn. You also have to convince interviewers that you are a rockstar.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#107

Post by mahyarm »

mentat wrote: post #93
mahyarm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of 'free time privilege' required to become a developer is less than the amount of 'privilege' required to become almost any other well paying profession. With software, you need a cheap computer, access to the internet and time to teach yourself. That can cost about $300 and $10/month in many places. With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other formal education. The barrier…

You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at all.

I did say "time to teach yourself", please read more closely.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#108

Post by hawleyal »

marknutter wrote: post #20
js8 wrote: post #8

I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of privilege.

> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept. I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future. > It's a good reminder of privilege. It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than a…

Just world fallacy. Tech is not a meritocracy, despite aspirations.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#109

Post by drzaiusapelord »

roymurdock wrote: post #11
hoorayimhelping wrote: post #4

Skip the overly dramatic Orwellian outrage porn and go straight to the banal conclusion: > What became apparent over my time there was that, whatever the dramatisation of previous investigations, working at Amazon is just shit – but no more shit than any other mundane, badly-paid job.

Also note that the article is written by a guy in the UK who is hired for seasonal warehouse work. Not a middle manager/higher salaried employee as was the case in the NYT article that sparked the outrage.

>Also note that the article is written by a guy in the UK who is hired for seasonal warehouse work.

Yeah, not to sound insensitive but those jobs suck by design. There's no pleasant warehouse job. Its backbreaking work, requires covering for those who called off so others get extra shifts, seasonal surges, etc. Work like that is a decade or two from being fully automated because its relatively simple and terrible dehumanizing work.

The white collar work won't be replaced by machines, unless strong HAL-like AI is around the bend, and its pretty obvious its not. They also have a higher barrier to entry and are very desirable, so people are rightfully outraged to hear how poorly devs and sysadmins are treated at Amazon.

Re: I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed

#110

Post by eropple »

afarrell wrote: post #102
eropple wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "privilege" is being used here in the social sense of the word, not the generic sense of the word. Which, to me as somebody who's spent a decent bit of time wrestling with the fact that, yes, I am incredibly privileged, is actually a little irritating--it's jargon but many people try to wedge it in as a normal word, much like (but less egregiously than) how Stallmanites try to co-opt "free". > If a person wa…

> It's jargon but many people try to wedge it as a normal word Yes, this is a problem. If you push back on it, some people will say "this is Social Justice 101", completely missing the fact that an intro course spends a lot of its time teaching jargon. > Which literally nobody does ... > A lot of what defensive people see as "shut up" when the concept of privilege is invoked is really Well, having been in many of the…

Trying to maybe teach a few people a few things is most of why I hang out around here--it's not good for my sanity to go "oh hey, that thread's going to have a bunch of people shitting on poor people/black people/immigrants", but maybe once in a while some sense can work its way into somebody.

And there are definitely assholes who use the concept as a bat--one can be an asshole and still be on the right side of history, of course. "Literally nobody does" was referring to the strange bugbear of "you are privileged and thus deserve nothing you have earned," which is generally a (defensively or politically motivated) misreading of "you've been really lucky, you should pay it forward."

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