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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#111
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another com…

The company leash is by far the biggest wage suppressor. Remove that, and of course the visa holders will get paid the "right" amount, because if they're not they should be able to switch jobs easily. For reference, this is how it works in Japan, for example. A company can sponsor your visa (which is basically some paperwork). But you get a fixed period in which you can work, and you can change companies without havi…

I switched jobs on H1B recently and I don't see what you think the leash is. The process takes about two weeks and as far as I can tell there is no realistic risk of losing the H1B even if your (about to be) former employer fires you and the new company butchers the transfer [1].

As a side-note, me changing jobs fairly dramatically increased my salary. I could presumably (I did not negotiate with old employer but a colleague did when he was about to leave) have gotten the same salary at my old place just by showing the new offer. I don't really see where the difference to a citizen is in this whole exercise.

([1] this is so because even if in the worst case you were kicked out of the country you could still reclaim the remaining time on the H1B so the worst case is still limited and I know of zero such cases.)

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I get extra points regarding my opinion if I am native American, what if my ancestors were aboard Mayflower or were grudgingly accepted as Irish or if they were slaves. United States has a complex racial history which includes laws such the Chinese Exclusion act (something that lead Supreme Court to affirm birthright citizenship). To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an…

Yes of course, how could I forget that an H1B worker is going through the same plight as a colored person pre-civil rights time and what Jews faced during Hitler's reign :) Wow! Hyperbole at it's best. > "To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis" Again, I never said you can't have an opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine. We…

You do realize that Jews were actually forbidden to enter and as a result millions died. Or that as early as 1965 when immigration and nationality act was enacted lifting country based caps to certain extent. Several US Congressman reassurred the public that the country won't be overrun by "dirty hindoos" (No kidding) if you are naive enough to thing that the current immigration and H1B logjam is not result of those past laws and you ought to not argue or even offer an opinon. Well then good luck with your career with this attitude one day you will wake up with your boss screwing you and you would be a nice sheep docile and ready for sacrifice.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#113
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?" How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google) In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/…

iow, you continue to assert without proof that h1b immigration doesn't constrain or reduce wages.

See my EDIT above. I am no economist to parse all this information, but in my experience and people I know the wage argument for "genuine" H1B applicants is hyperbole.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

you want to be a world beating company you'd better have your talent pool be the world. American tech would be a shell of what it is without foreign labour.

Big fallacy here... The Japanese built a world-class technology industry with local labor. German companies are still best in class using local labor. Israel has a thriving technology industry based on local labor. Why would the US companies be any different from what they are right now? 90%+ of Google/FB/Apple software development is US based. The only real difference is that they would have to pay higher salaries, which doesn't seem to be a big burden, since their owners are multibillionaires -- that is, these companies are clearly not counting pennies to survive.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#115
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

How are companies liable for more taxes if they move jobs overseas? Are you imagining a punishment tax to companies that operate in the US and develop overseas as well? Any such tax would only exacerbate the loss of jobs. A better strategy is to ensure US domination of technology development through any means possible. Besides, it isn't like wages for tech workers are low in the US.

US domination of technology development doesn't mean exporting jobs or importing foreign labor. The US has 300 million people, many of them college educated. There is nothing preventing the US from dominating technology even if it doesn't have an H1B program. Such arguments are so easy disprove, you just need to look how silly they are.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#116
post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

STEM is misnomer. Ever met an unemployed or underemployed biologist, ultrasound tech, environmental engineer, or statistician? The real sweet spot is PI - physics and informatics. These roles are unique in that they can be explosively productive and create more jobs than were there at the start. PI, or "STEM" is more than a buzzword.

I'm confused if there ever was a field at the intersection of Physics and Informatics, EE has got to be it. Shannon literally invented information theory....

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your arguments clearly contradict each other: "The marketplace is fiercely competitive, and they typically need people on the ground right away." " The time it takes for a new hire at Google to get productive is usually about 6 months to a year." It cannot be both ways as you please. Either these companies are investing in training or not. If they are, then things like requirements gathering, creating specs, and prov…

> Your arguments clearly contradict each other They don't. It's kinda disingenuous to pick phrases out of context to make a point. But let me clarify anyway: - smaller companies typically cannot afford to train, they need people on the ground right away. - larger companies typically do train. Almost every large company I've worked with has dedicated training groups, programs, and staff. - experience is more valuable…

These phrases came directly from the context of your arguments, so they are not out of context.

You first point proves what I'm saying. Your second point is doubtful, because large companies are the ones that spend the most time in useless interviewing. The training you're eluding to is tool training, which is essential in a place like Google where the programer has to spend most of his time working on closed technology.

Also, saying that companies filter for experience is not correct. Interviews at most tech companies (especially the large ones) is done to eliminate large numbers of people based on the solution of narrow-minded programming questions. These questions rarely correlate with experience, in fact most people that are just out of college can do so well or better in these questions than an experienced engineer.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes of course, how could I forget that an H1B worker is going through the same plight as a colored person pre-civil rights time and what Jews faced during Hitler's reign :) Wow! Hyperbole at it's best. > "To claim that by virtue of not being an American Citizen I have no right to offer an informed opinion based on moral analysis" Again, I never said you can't have an opinion. You have your opinion and I have mine. We…

You do realize that Jews were actually forbidden to enter and as a result millions died. Or that as early as 1965 when immigration and nationality act was enacted lifting country based caps to certain extent. Several US Congressman reassurred the public that the country won't be overrun by "dirty hindoos" (No kidding) if you are naive enough to thing that the current immigration and H1B logjam is not result of those…

I am fully aware of these historical facts and I'm also aware of racist people (I used to live in Texas for 7 years). But how are these related to a US govt. issued legal immigrant visa i.e. H1B?

Did you arrive in the US in a clunky boat fearing for your life and running away from a despot on an H1B?

Please don't compare the challenges of H1B workers to events in which people were actually murdered or lived in fear of their death. It's ridiculous.

If your premonition of being sacrificed is true, oh my, what would I do if I lose my job? I would be so lost...lol! I have the confidence (not arrogance) in my abilities to find another one :) And BTW, I was laid off my first job in late 2008 (during the recession) and I found another job. And this confidence comes from the fact that I take my career goals seriously and don't hide behind the veil of a fake victim.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#119
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company leash is by far the biggest wage suppressor. Remove that, and of course the visa holders will get paid the "right" amount, because if they're not they should be able to switch jobs easily. For reference, this is how it works in Japan, for example. A company can sponsor your visa (which is basically some paperwork). But you get a fixed period in which you can work, and you can change companies without havi…

I switched jobs on H1B recently and I don't see what you think the leash is. The process takes about two weeks and as far as I can tell there is no realistic risk of losing the H1B even if your (about to be) former employer fires you and the new company butchers the transfer [1]. As a side-note, me changing jobs fairly dramatically increased my salary. I could presumably (I did not negotiate with old employer but a c…

My understanding is that the real leash is the H1B to green card process. The process is slow and complicated and switching companies often requires you to start over (not to mention opening doors for other problems).

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#120
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?" How many years of experience (0,5,10,15,20?)? What is the education level required (PhD vs bachelors/masters)? It's not as simple as "H1B software developer in California" nor are the salaries. They vary between companies (eg., Netflix pays more than Google) In any case, here you go: http://h1bdata.info/…

iow, you continue to assert without proof that h1b immigration doesn't constrain or reduce wages.

The reality is that these numbers don't prove anything. If H1B visas are constraining wages (and they most certainly are), everybody's wages will be constrained. The line of reasoning is so silly that basic supply-demand argument will prove it wrong: if there are more workers, there will certainly be a downward pressure in salaries, it doesn't matter the origin of the work force. Saying otherwise is just unreasonable without proof.
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