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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#91

Post by latj »

ashwinaj wrote: post #72
latj wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not who you are addressing exactly, but it is not "bigoted" to make the claim that bringing more workers into a workforce will drive salaries down.

I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.

Ok, we've heard your proposition. Now make some arguments. Now show some evidence.

For example, mean pay for a software developer in state of California is $119,970 according to Bureau of Labor Statistics [1]. What is the minimum wage required for a H1B software developer in California [2]? What is the actual mean pay?

My instinct is that you are correct and H1B visas are not driving down salaries- but thats just a guess, I have no idea. But your arguments so far are "dont be a bigot" and "its all public information".

If its public information, have you seen it? If so, share it with us. If not, how are you sure you are correct?

If you are just venting, then vent away my friend.

Otherwise, it is ineffective to fight bigotry by telling people they are bigots. Share data from a trusted source, give sound analysis, and hope for the best.

Good luck.

1. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151132.htm

2. I would have dug this up myself but its actually a bit of work to compile as a meaningful look at this issue requires looking at many geographical areas and professions.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#92

Post by rcheu »

staticint wrote: post #74
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another com…

Yes, this will lower wages, but now there's more people employed and more work done in the US.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#93

Post by NhanH »

coliveira wrote: post #85
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

> The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry.

The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of free market would include free immigration.

Yes, a libertarian free market only society might not be in anyone benefits, and any regulation to limit them might have some merit. But we should really call a spade a spade.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#94

Post by discardorama »

fiatmoney wrote: post #56
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

There is a separate "superstar" visa. The O-1 visa is available to "individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics". The claimed point of H1B is to benefit Americans and the American economy by filling positions which have a temporary shortage, in a way that does not drive down wages. Of course that's not even close to how it works in practice.

O-1 is for people with a demonstrated extraordinary ability. When they came over, Nadella, Pichai, Khosla, etc. were just students fresh out of college.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#95

Post by vadym909 »

ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

comparison of the salaries and numbers of h1b visas of the 'genuine' vs 'staffing'. Last year the top 2 staffing cos - Infosys and TCS got 40,000 visas (2/3rds of the quota) at an average salary between $60-80K. The top 2 R&D cos- Microsoft and Google got 9,000 visas (14% of quota) at an average salary of $125K. Pretty easy to tell what is genuine. http://www.oncontracting.com/article/how-the-us-can-reduce-h...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#96

Post by ashwinaj »

secondtimeuse wrote: post #89
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

Please This is a false dichotomy and typically parroted by upper middle class indians who had enough resources to pay for graduate school in USA. The system could use tweaks and points to grade applications but you are presentin a very naive a class based view of the situation. You might feel that you could convince immigration hardliners by this argument but in reality most are motivated by ideology rather than rati…

Sorry? How is scrutinizing applications for employment a naive view of the situation? Isn't it obvious that if an application is not genuine it should be cancelled (eg., working for a "client", where the "client" is a shell company)?

I'm not trying to convince anyone and I personally don't care what other Indians (as I'm Indian) think about my opinion. I only represent my opinion not theirs (and they are free to have their own and disagree with mine).

On your immigration comment, if you are an American citizen you have the right to claim what you say about the immigration situation in the US. As far as I am concerned, I have no say in the immigration debate as an H1B worker. All I am concerned about is to work on challenging problems and advance my career, that's it. I am not using the so called H1B "restrictions" as an excuse for all ills as a potential immigrant.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#97

Post by bdamm »

coliveira wrote: post #85
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

How are companies liable for more taxes if they move jobs overseas? Are you imagining a punishment tax to companies that operate in the US and develop overseas as well? Any such tax would only exacerbate the loss of jobs.

A better strategy is to ensure US domination of technology development through any means possible.

Besides, it isn't like wages for tech workers are low in the US.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#98

Post by ashwinaj »

tn13 wrote: post #79
ashwinaj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.

There are lot of illegal things that happen with H1B that prevent the above. For example H4 spouse can not work but then some company agrees to sponsor H1B under the condition that no payslips will be given and hence you can not transfer the visa. This is same as slavery except that the choice otherwise is to be on H4 which does not let you earn a penny but be a burden.

> "then some company agrees to sponsor H1B under the condition that no payslips will be given and hence you can not transfer the visa"

"Some company"? No law abiding company can do what you're saying, let's get real. This is illegal. This is the reason that these fraudulent "staffing" companies exist in the first place since they know the employee will never be a whistle blower and for the love of god I don't understand why?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#99

Post by coliveira »

NhanH wrote: post #93
coliveira wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

> The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. The "natural law of supply and demand", specifically, the supply side doesn't magically stop at the border of a country. If anything, protectionism is against the free market ideal. Labor is just another resources like any other, and the extreme version of…

That's BS, because this is not a free trade world. The US invests billions of dollars in technology that directly benefits American companies, not French companies, for example. American companies and entire industries (such as agriculture) receive tax breaks that are not available in other parts of the world. Then why only workers have to carry the burden of increased job competition from free trade?

Free trade laws don't appear out of thin ether either, it is companies that lobby politicians to create such laws -- while at the same time claiming to the public that they are inevitable. This is a distorted ideology that needs to be opposed, not just observed as if it were good or inevitable.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#100

Post by shrewduser »

coliveira wrote: post #85
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "ta…

you want to be a world beating company you'd better have your talent pool be the world.

American tech would be a shell of what it is without foreign labour.

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