Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 156 posts

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#81

Post by learc83 »

ashwinaj wrote: post #69
nickbauman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still believe it's a wage suppression strategy. Here's why: I used to work for a major multinational based in Europe, but I lived here in the US. Many of the people I worked with were not US citizens, but lived and worked here on an E-1 (the European version of the H-1b Visa). They were essentially captive workers who were at the mercy of the whims of management; management that was largely absent from the day-to-d…

> "who were at the mercy of the whims of management" With H1B you are not tied to the same employer, you are free to leave the sponsoring employer and go elsewhere. I don't know about the E-1 visa. Again, if you feel they were being paid below the market rate, you can check up the bulletin board to make sure.

There is still an element of captivity above what a citizen or resident faces--staying in country is contingent on quickly finding another employer who will sponsor you.

If a native employee is fired, they lose their job and probably go on unemployment while the look for another one.

If an H-1B employee is fired, they get deported.

Employers know this, and they treat H-1B employees accordingly.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#82

Post by andyl »

First they came for the Auto workers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not an Auto worker, and I felt they were overpaid and sort of lazy.

Then they came for the Electronics manufacturing, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a line worker, and the line workers need to work in high-value fields.

Then they came for the Electrical Engineers, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a EE, and it seems sort of racist to take jobs from Chinese.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#83

Post by sopooneo »

adevine wrote: post #12
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

Thank you for posting this, and am reading it very closely. However, I can't quite follow what you're saying with the first point, which is probably my fault. Would you mind putting it in other words?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#84

Post by rtpg »

staticint wrote: post #74
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

Also, H1B workers get paid the same as local workers... So if you buy the allegation that wages are being depressed by H1B workers, why don't you take a peek at the bulletin board of your break room The idea usually is that the presence of an H1B means that someone local does not exist to do the job, which means that a company would otherwise have to pay more than the going rate to poach someone else from another com…

The company leash is by far the biggest wage suppressor. Remove that, and of course the visa holders will get paid the "right" amount, because if they're not they should be able to switch jobs easily.

For reference, this is how it works in Japan, for example. A company can sponsor your visa (which is basically some paperwork). But you get a fixed period in which you can work, and you can change companies without having to do anything except signal a company change to the immigration office. Very low friction

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#85

Post by coliveira »

ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

The fact that H1B holders are paid the same as American workers doesn't negate the fact that there is a depressing wage effect. The reality is that this program exists so that companies like Google and Microsoft don't have to face the natural law of supply and demand in the job industry. If salaries get too high, they just lobby the congress to increase the number of H1Bs with the excuse that there are not enough "talented" workers (a subjetive term that makes little sense).

In a country that valued their citizens, these companies would have to pay higher salaries as the demand increased, and as a result more people would chose this career path, thereby reaching a market equilibrium. If these companies moved jobs overseas, they would be liable for more taxes to offset the job losses, so they would be discouraged to do so. The fact that nobody talks about these simple strategies just shows that companies have done a great job to preach their message to the US government and workers.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#86

Post by nitrogen »

ashwinaj wrote: post #72
latj wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not who you are addressing exactly, but it is not "bigoted" to make the claim that bringing more workers into a workforce will drive salaries down.

I am replying to those who make claims that H1B workers are being paid below market rate, hence driving down salaries. There is a minimum wage requirement as I mentioned which is approved by the state department of labor. Again, these "driving down wages" doesn't hold water when the H1B salaries are public information.

How does that minimum wage compare to free market resident wages, by percentile? Is it median? 25th? Lower? Higher?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#87

Post by nova22033 »

nickbauman wrote: post #60
ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

I still believe it's a wage suppression strategy. Here's why: I used to work for a major multinational based in Europe, but I lived here in the US. Many of the people I worked with were not US citizens, but lived and worked here on an E-1 (the European version of the H-1b Visa). They were essentially captive workers who were at the mercy of the whims of management; management that was largely absent from the day-to-d…

>I couldn't prove it completely but based on the compensation rates of a few I knew

anecdata...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#88

Post by jackcosgrove »

ydkditfi wrote: post #2

Reminder that "STEM" was just a buzzword designed to flood the skill-intensive labor markets with a generation of idealistic youngsters, all with the intention of driving down wages. There never was a labor shortage, or as it's occasionally framed, a "talent" shortage.

STEM is misnomer. Ever met an unemployed or underemployed biologist, ultrasound tech, environmental engineer, or statistician?

The real sweet spot is PI - physics and informatics. These roles are unique in that they can be explosively productive and create more jobs than were there at the start. PI, or "STEM" is more than a buzzword.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#89

Post by secondtimeuse »

ashwinaj wrote: post #51

There are two kinds of H1B petitions: 1. Genuine candidates: I'm going to quote the extreme, people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, Vinod Khosla etc. came to the US on H1B and there are a lot of other "superstars" on H1B or naturalized citizens. More practically, there are thousands of other talented people from all countries who work on H1B. So the argument that H1B should be done away with is absurd, unless the…

Please This is a false dichotomy and typically parroted by upper middle class indians who had enough resources to pay for graduate school in USA. The system could use tweaks and points to grade applications but you are presentin a very naive a class based view of the situation.

You might feel that you could convince immigration hardliners by this argument but in reality most are motivated by ideology rather than rationality. At the same time you will alienate other indians.

With lotteries, 7+ year racist country based quotas and 12 Million undocumented immigrants it's a system which long due for a comprehensive reform don't waste time defending it.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#90

Post by MisterBastahrd »

H1Bs should have to be paid at least 20% more than the local market average for qualified workers. If people with their qualifications are truly THAT scarce, then businesses should have to pony up more than the going rate given their specializations.
Post reply on HN