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U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#41

Post by secondtimeuse »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #34
secondtimeuse wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there was a 6% increase in salary between 2013 and 2014. And the "data" for 2015 is derived from mere 705 "# of Salaries". There aren't any new recent moves by DHS regarding "OPTs". The proposed change in "STEM Extension", won't come into affect at least until mid 2016.

I compared 2014 to 2015. In regard to DHS, the US court system found that DHS unlawfully created the rules for OPT in 2008 in backroom deals with industry lobbyists. When the court told them so, the DHS went in to "all hands on deck" mode to come up with a work around. (So far they've failed, putting ~130k OPT guest workers at risk of having to leave the country on Feb 12th 2016). Besides the question of what is DHS…

There are 62,000+ degrees in Computer Science alone awarded every year. With sample size 705 you are showing a decrease of 6% then p https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/10/03/the-10-job...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#42

Post by throawayalwayz »

revelation wrote: post #29
throawayalwayz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP never mentioned cheap soldering - where did you get that from? The issue (as I understand it) is that the design and manufacture of most electrical components is happening offshore. The biggest fab in the world is in Taiwan. We aren't talking about cheap soldering, we are talking about the semiconductor work that drives most hardware. We are starting to see a few hardware startups but most of the jobs created are…

OP said 'cheaper to manufacture'.

Cheaper to manufacture means something completely different from soldering. That's a huge and nonsensical leap you make there. Soldering isn't even the largest cost associated with electronics and semiconductor manufacturing.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#43

Post by secondtimeuse »

revelation wrote: post #32
secondtimeuse wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think hon hai precision industry co. ltd (aka foxconn) is merely doing "soldering" in China you ought to catch up with the market reality. Almost everyone I know who is employed at Apple (in California) with electrical engineering degree, goes on multi-month annual visits to Chinese plants.

You still haven't clarified this. Are they going there to supervise the manufacturing process or to learn from their peers? Is Foxconn doing EE design for Apple?

Apple recently opened a new R&D center in Taiwan. Which shows that not only production but also research and development can move / will eventually move to other countries.

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/12/16/apple-taiwan-factory-ole...

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#44

Post by no_wave »

npalli wrote: post #39
ones_and_zeros wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm comparing computer science majors, which is the majority (80% in 2015) of those in the computer science category. I think this removes outliers like someone getting a bachelors in computer science with a major in financial engineering at Cornell making 200k on Wall Street after graduation. 2014 67,500. 2015 65,004. Down about 3.7%, which adds up over time. Either way, from my point of view, the software "professi…

Well, even in that case, the 2014 salary was a 6.4% raise over 2013. Unusually large increase. So, it certainly "didn't add up over time". Also, strange to read about software profession being dead in water. Pretty much all estimates from BLS show it to be the fastest growing job segment. Which fields (apart from healthcare) are doing better that software?

Software is the fastest growing field, but when you factor in 1.5% and 1.6% inflation in 2013 and 2014 (and use the salary numbers discussed in this thread), you get a real decrease of 1% between 2013 and 2015. So you're getting a salary decrease for the fastest growing profession in the US - a terrible sign. Why shouldn't salary be allowed to increase, especially when rents rose 27% in San Francisco?

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#45

Post by dragonwriter »

no_wave wrote: post #44
npalli wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, even in that case, the 2014 salary was a 6.4% raise over 2013. Unusually large increase. So, it certainly "didn't add up over time". Also, strange to read about software profession being dead in water. Pretty much all estimates from BLS show it to be the fastest growing job segment. Which fields (apart from healthcare) are doing better that software?

Software is the fastest growing field, but when you factor in 1.5% and 1.6% inflation in 2013 and 2014 (and use the salary numbers discussed in this thread), you get a real decrease of 1% between 2013 and 2015. So you're getting a salary decrease for the fastest growing profession in the US - a terrible sign. Why shouldn't salary be allowed to increase, especially when rents rose 27% in San Francisco?

> Why shouldn't salary be allowed to naturally increase

Because cost of labor (including salaries) compete with returns on capital, and, well, people who favor "capitalism" rather than, say, "laborism" tend to hold political (as a consequence of economic) power.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#46

Post by no_wave »

adevine wrote: post #12
ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of programming jobs don't require rock star programmers.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

I don't think this is difficult, but I agree that it is rare. There is very little pressure encouraging people to become one of these programmers. I'm one of them, but it's difficult to actually leverage this into a higher salary unless you got involved with a larger company straight out of college. The interview process doesn't expose this, and unless you write a hit open-source application there isn't any way to prove it.

Instead, employers - even technical people who interview you - play buzzword bingo, indicating that you would have been better off spewing new frameworks into your codebase unnecessarily. The personal incentives for a programmer are completely misaligned with the actual interests of the business.

The approach that would incentivize this behavior would involve giving raises to people who write the sort of code you want to see, but instead raises often come from dazzling strangers who don't know the long-term consequences of your code (ie, getting a higher offer and asking for a raise).

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#47

Post by pm90 »

nashashmi wrote: post #16

In response to a comment claiming outsourcing was the issue, I responded with this and thought it relevant to post here: FWIW, the very cap on H-1Bs plus the decreasing attraction of coming to the US is the very reason ALL companies are going overseas. I once did a research on outsourcing and the pivotal reason I found for outsourcing was not the "cheapness" of the foreign markets, but the decreasing flexibility and…

This is a great observation. I wonder when cooler heads will prevail and reform the worker visa program into one which is more flexible (and sane) than the one that exists currently. I understand that there are a lot of difficulties but the present situation just cannot continue unless more jobs are outsourced completely. With the difficulty in obtaining worker visas, US corporations might have to resort to outsourcing wholesale.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#48

Post by coliveira »

nashashmi wrote: post #16

In response to a comment claiming outsourcing was the issue, I responded with this and thought it relevant to post here: FWIW, the very cap on H-1Bs plus the decreasing attraction of coming to the US is the very reason ALL companies are going overseas. I once did a research on outsourcing and the pivotal reason I found for outsourcing was not the "cheapness" of the foreign markets, but the decreasing flexibility and…

You are buying a completely flawed argument. The reason there are fewer and fewer American factory workers is that nobody is going to pay for a degree for which there are no jobs. If you are in the US and you have to decide on a degree, would you go to do factory-related work, knowing that companies are moving oversees as soon as they can?

The only way to get workers for a particular field is to have investments in that field, especially in a country where citizens have free initiative. If the industry and the government continue to subsidize companies that open factories outside the US, it is not a big surprise that they will have trouble finding workers for this kind positions. This is the logical consequence, not the cause for this big shift. The cause is that big business want to take advantage of cheap labor and no regulation at third world countries, while at the same time slashing the taxes they need to pay in the US.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#49

Post by pm90 »

no_wave wrote: post #46
adevine wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true, I have found that a developer who can do the following to be very rare: 1. Take a set of requirements, and first identify those reqs for any underspecified elements, or elements where the underlying tech would limit the functionality. 2. Implement the reqs according to the now agreed upon spec 3. Provide adequate documentation and tests for the new implementation. 4. Perhaps most importantly, and…

I don't think this is difficult, but I agree that it is rare. There is very little pressure encouraging people to become one of these programmers. I'm one of them, but it's difficult to actually leverage this into a higher salary unless you got involved with a larger company straight out of college. The interview process doesn't expose this, and unless you write a hit open-source application there isn't any way to pr…

There doesn't seem to be a way for a company to evaluate the "goodness" of your code in a meaningful way. And even if they did, you will NOT get a raise without asking for it. OTOH, there are those, like you mention, who will leverage other job offers to get a raise and such...so the only solution seems to be for those who write the good code to engage in similar tactics, regardless of the disdain they might have for them.

Re: U.S. predicts zero job growth for electrical engineers

#50

Post by amelius »

heapcity wrote: post #5

People with Engineering / Comp. Sci. Degrees are not in short supply. Exceptional engineers and programmers are. Its almost like the difference between kids who want to play football and the people with talent to make it.

With more and more tools and development philosophies coming available (React, Go, NodeJS, etc.) we need less and less exceptional programmers :)
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