2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt • Hacker News Board

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#81

Post by petra » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

ruraltechnocrat wrote: post #22

The problem with Microsoft hasn't been that they've never been able to inspire excitement with a product (remember currier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Courier , or Kinect) but rather their execution on those products. Only half of Apple's genius is their design, the other half is their incredible execution machine, in large part thanks to the work that Tim Cook did. Microsoft used to have an incredible e…

Apple's competitive advantage is certainly isn't in supply chain management , many big electronic OEM's are very capable at that.

Their advantage we're in the combination of innovation, design and marketing, and their unique market power/position which give them unique powers over collaborators and suppliers which they knew how to smartly use to build new ecosystems.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#82

Post by restalis » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #74

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

It just got closer to the other leading operating systems (iOS and Android). They claim that they need telemetry, which I find reasonable from a technical standpoint. The lack of opt-out is annoying, however, given Microsoft's bad public image I think people would opt out in masses if they provided this option. So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you an…

"The lack of opt-out is annoying"

No, the lack of opt-out is suspect, and in this context the claimed "need for telemetry" is plain intelligence-insulting! What really is sought in this sadistic game from their part is the option of having greater power/control over the devices installed with their product. Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt about that!

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#83

Post by burntcookie90 » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #70

clort wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android doesn't even let you use the OS properly without account. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you explain further? I will say, that I've had a couple of Android phones for perhaps 4-5 years now and while I initially did use the bundled OS on my first one, I have never signed in with a Google account.. I use CyanogenMod now on a Nexus S with no Google apps and the phone doesn't seem to be without feature…

You are an outlier. For 99% of the users (not an accurate figure, of course) using Android without the Play Store is not viable.

Using Google's android is not, but you could get amazon, or whatever. It's part of the ecosystem, if you buy into Amazon's you get their store, if you buy into Google's you get their's. If you want neither, you have to figure that out, or a new company needs to handle that situation.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#84

Post by criddell » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #74

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

It just got closer to the other leading operating systems (iOS and Android). They claim that they need telemetry, which I find reasonable from a technical standpoint. The lack of opt-out is annoying, however, given Microsoft's bad public image I think people would opt out in masses if they provided this option. So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you an…

They need all that information for things like Cortana to do it's magic. For those of us that don't need or want Cortana (or Siri or OK Google) on the desktop, they shouldn't need my data. Telemetry after a crash or with regards to OS function usage seems OK to me, but I don't want my calendar, phone book, or email sent to the cloud for analysis.

I don't see how small medical offices can use Windows anymore (big ones will use Enterprise Windows and shut all that stuff off). If the calendar and email are being sent to the cloud, then that sounds like a potential HIPAA violation.

I don't understand why consumers can't easily disable all data sharing with Microsoft. I don't think Apple is as bad and now I'm thinking about buying my first Mac in a long time and running a VM for the few Windows applications I absolutely need.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#85

Post by lstamour » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

TruthSHIFT wrote: post #47

ifdefdebug wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?

Apple has a history of avoiding the storage of personal data when possible. They also have a history of failing to comply with the demands of authorities to release personal information. On the other hand, Microsoft has a history of complying with government authorities.

Apple has a history of telemetry collection without any checkboxes whatsoever. Consider http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/82765/osx-yosemi... and the existence of "com.apple.telemetry" as well as telemetry collection in their kernel and announcements on stage when they show how many people use certain features of OS X or iOS.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#86

Post by raesene9 » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:16 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #59

ifdefdebug wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?

Windows PCs are not used for the same thing as smartphones. Most people don't have all their critical financial or business information on their phones; that's what PCs are for ("real work"). Most people probably don't care too much if Google knows that you're using Tinder.

that's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure it chimes too closely with what I've seen these days.

in the UK at least most banks have mobile apps which run on android, people do e-mail (which controls most of their sensitive information) and other items on mobile devices, so their security would be every bit as important as a windows/OSX PC...

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#87

Post by marcosdumay » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:19 PM UTC

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #10

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

which remains for me the main reason why regardless of it is now being cool again I still avoid it like the plague. another funny thing is that they have improved their OS security so much that it is now considered harder than Linux, and Apple

Sorry, but I'm classifying your first link as FUD. (And the second has no clear conclusion.)

It's are incredibly misleading, as it:

- doesn't take into account the severity of the bugs; - doesn't take into account the time to fix the bugs, or if they are still open; - bundles some OSs, while separating Windows on several different categories; - compares OSs with incredibly different lifespans; - compares OSs with incredibly different amount of included software.

It's an article created to make Windows look artificially good, nothing more than that.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#88

Post by scholia » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

Grishnakh wrote: post #59

ifdefdebug wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to run Windows 10 without any calling home at all. Just don't use a Microsoft account. Just chose custom configurations during setup. Doesn't a default Android phone also do a lot of calling home? And Apple phones? Why is it so special when it's Windows?

Windows PCs are not used for the same thing as smartphones. Most people don't have all their critical financial or business information on their phones; that's what PCs are for ("real work"). Most people probably don't care too much if Google knows that you're using Tinder.

Windows 10 runs on everything from USB thumbdrives to 84-inch Surface Hubs, including smartphones, tablets, 2-in-1s, laptops and desktops. If you remove all the corporate machines (with control via Global Policies) then the majority are probably mobile.

Some of Windows 10's features come from the convergence with the smartphone platform (Notifications, Cortana).

As well as being a mobile OS that runs lots of mobile apps, Windows 10 also has cloud integration (OneDrive, Windows Store etc).

This shouldn't be a shock. Nadella has been saying "mobile first, cloud first" since he got the CEO job.

> Most people don't have all their critical financial or business information on their phones

Why would you imagine Microsoft was incorporating such info in its anonymized telemetry? It's not like telemetry was exactly a new thing.

As a matter of fact, Windows Update has been scanning people's hard drives for years (with MRT, the Malware Removal Tool), and collecting crash data since XP.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#89

Post by Silhouette » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

sz4kerto wrote: post #74

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

They've done some brilliant things for developers this year, but sadly shipped a giant spyware operating system at the same time. From what I've read people are still trying to determine everything it's calling home.

It just got closer to the other leading operating systems (iOS and Android). They claim that they need telemetry, which I find reasonable from a technical standpoint. The lack of opt-out is annoying, however, given Microsoft's bad public image I think people would opt out in masses if they provided this option. So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you an…

So I don't think the data they send back is 'spyware' in the sense that they want to know more about you and then sell it or use it to sell other stuff to you.

Unfortunately, given that the other sting in Windows 10 is automatic, compulsory updates, even if your hypothesis is true today there is no guarantee it will remain true tomorrow.

I'm a little sad about the whole Windows 10 situation, really. From the more credible commentary I've read now that the dust has settled, it seems like a reasonable OS under the hood. It also seems like with enough effort you could mitigate or work around the worst of what is there, maybe even in some of the non-Enterprise versions.

However, those privacy and control issues are complete deal-breakers for me. Recent behaviour by Microsoft has abused the Windows update mechanism for earlier versions that I do use, and it has also included a disturbing number of outright broken updates. Unlike a surprising number of professional reviewers, I am therefore not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt any longer. If I can't turn things off reliably on my own computer if I don't want them to happen, and I can't trust that questionable things will be opt-in instead of opt-out, then unfortunately none of the rest matters very much for either my own personal or my businesses' professional purchasing decisions.

Re: 2015: The year that Microsoft started getting the benefit of the doubt

#90

Post by raesene9 » Mon, Dec 28, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #24

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which remains for me the main reason why regardless of it is now being cool again I still avoid it like the plague. another funny thing is that they have improved their OS security so much that it is now considered harder than Linux, and Apple

Do you have a source for Windows 10 being considered more secure than OS X or Linux? Didn't expect that designation to fall on a spyware-as-OS product.

Security is in a way orthagonal to privacy.

A product can be secure from malicous attack whilst still leaking information to the Operating System provider, unless of course you don't trust the provider of your OS, in which case you're completely stuffed anyway :)

Microsoft have made a lot of advances in the security field and have a generally good relationship with the security community. In contrast, I would perceive Apple as having a less good relationship with the security community (they're very secretative about what they do, they've taken actions like revoking Charlie Millers Dev creds for pointing out vulnerabilities). Linux is of course not uniform enough to e able to assign a single value to it but there are some potential concerns about their view of security bugs as just being like any other bug...