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Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

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Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#41

Post by Flimm »

enitihas wrote: post #23
nitrogen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little good now at the expense of a significant amount of future opportunity. In established markets this is called "dumping" -- giving something away to destroy competition.

I don't think there is any loss of significant future opportunity. When someone will be able to afford the Internet, they will start using whichever service they find fit. Till then for those people, I can't overstate how important free access to even this limited Internet is. Even free access to wikipedia and facebook helps a lot of people in a lot of ways. Fun Story: One day I was with the brother of a friend of mi…

What about the third and fourth and fifth alternatives that are never talked about? Why must India choose between Free Basics or nothing?

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#42

Post by icebraining »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #16
horsecaptin wrote: post #4

Facebook provides free access to Facebook / Wikipedia etc... then customers that have no access win because they get access and along with it, some pretty nifty tools to gain information and share news with their friends and family. On the other hand, if Facebook doesn't provide free internet, then all those people stay in the dark. What does net neutrality have to do with this? It's not those people are paying for a…

This is economic imperialism. The underlying current of thought is that India is too poor/stupid/backwards to get its population online. That's pretty fucking racist. And Facebook is hardly doing this out of any altruistic tendencies. These poor people, who've only ever seen a facebook-ized internet, become a cash cow for FB - they can exploit them however they please. I trust the EFF much more than I trust FB: https…

This is economic imperialism. The underlying current of thought is that India is too poor/stupid/backwards to get its population online. That's pretty fucking racist.

Then India can prove them wrong but offering free full Internet access to its citizens, so that Facebook's racism costs them their investment.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#43

Post by abhaga »

enitihas wrote: post #23
nitrogen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little good now at the expense of a significant amount of future opportunity. In established markets this is called "dumping" -- giving something away to destroy competition.

I don't think there is any loss of significant future opportunity. When someone will be able to afford the Internet, they will start using whichever service they find fit. Till then for those people, I can't overstate how important free access to even this limited Internet is. Even free access to wikipedia and facebook helps a lot of people in a lot of ways. Fun Story: One day I was with the brother of a friend of mi…

You are assuming that the other services can just wait it out while people break out of FB ecosystem and discover them. Development of these kind of walled gardens significantly harm the development of independent services. That is one of the main problem. If everyone had free Orkut and no access to FB, how long would it have taken Facebook to catch on?

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#45

Post by l1feh4ck »

firasd wrote: post #38
l1feh4ck wrote: post #35

Keeping marketing or financial problems aside. What are the technical difficulties that Facebook would face when providing access to the whole web rather that some specific website? Data from Facebook or Wikipedia is same as the data from any other website. They will need the same infrastructure. What am I missing here?

I think network operators around the world are receptive to ‘zero-​rating’ certain websites (which is all Free Basics really is) whereas making free data available with a usage cap or speed cap would be something new. Facebook is not actually providing access or building infrastructure (under this program), they are teaming up with ISPs.

Some one have to pay the ISP for the service they are providing. Suppose that Facebook is providing access to all websites in free basics. Where is the business model in that. How can Facebook profit from that? May be what Facebook is saying is right: “We are not against net neutrality”, but there is no way on earth that they could provide such service for free.

What are they suppose to do? Give people free access to whole web assuming that out of their good heart they will use Facebook? Note: I am not supporting Facebook.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#46

Post by lgp171188 »

enitihas wrote: post #19

I don't think people crying for net neutrality understand how many people in India still do not have Internet access. Even free access to facebook changes people's lives in a better way. I belong to a small village in eastern UP, and the Internet penetration is still very less there. The Internet has huge potential to change people's lives for the better, and I have experienced it in my own life. Lots of people still…

If Facebook is bringing in Free Basics only to get those who do not have internet access to get some, then why is Free Basics provided even to customers with data packs? I have seen in person and verified that it is the case.

Facebook has reportedly spent more than $20 million to advertise, push and lobby for Free Basics. Just imagine if that money was used to provide some MB of unrestricted internet usage to people. A lot of people would have benefited. That also begs the question, how is Facebook going to recoup that? And every answer to that question is bad for those poor users that Facebook is connecting to their own walled garden impersonating internet.

Also if people can afford to get phones that support connecting to internet (these days almost all such phones are smartphones and prices start from Rs. 2000 onwards), can they not afford Rs.100 odd to get a reasonable amount of 2G data to access the actual internet? Imho most of them can.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#47

Post by Ar-Curunir »

peteretep wrote: post #32
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather not have Western companies filter what Indians can and cannot have under the assumption that India is too poor or backwards to get its shit done.

> under the assumption that India is too poor or > backwards to get its shit done Perhaps until it does "get its shit done" that assumption would appear to hold? I have often wondered what the middle-class Indian dudes who are trying to block their country men from getting Facebook and Wikipedia access are really scared of. Could it just be they're worried about how it looks?

India is certainly trying, and we've improved greatly in this regard. I don't think the West should get to decide what the rest of the world can and cannot see. Under the current internet.org setup, HTTPS does not work on feature phones, which are still a HUGE market in India. So by using internet.org, fb gets to see in plain all communication between a user and the website. Furthermore, anybody eavesdropping on this connection can also see this data.

So basically in exchange for free internet, Indians lose security and privacy. Just because these people are poor does not mean that they don't deserve these rights. Somehow, I don't trust fb to act benevolently in this situation when they'll have so much data ready to use.

Great quote from Desmond Tutu:

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land.

They said 'Let us pray.'

We closed our eyes.

When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."

The last time the West claimed to be helping spread enlightenment to uncivilized people, they colonized them and stole their resources and livelihoods. Fuck that, it's not happening again.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#48

Post by lgp171188 »

devnonymous wrote: post #2

This is going very quickly from > Nothing to worry about, I trust the people in charge > to do the right thing, after all they did show better > judgement in the past to > We hope the people in charge know what they are doing The worst part is this (Narendra Modi/BJP led) government is enjoying popular support these days due to the progressive steps that they have taken as far as public spending on development and in…

The original TRAI paper for this Net Neutrality discussion looked exactly like if it had been written by someone from the telcos. This repeated "call for feedback" attempts made by TRAI seems to be a ploy to ignore the 1.5 M+ responses supporting net neutrality that they had received during the April consultation.

If Facebook can (ab)use their monopoly and userbase to trick people into supporting Free Basics, just imagine what they will do when they monopolize access to Internet in India for most of the people? Scary!

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#49

Post by firasd »

l1feh4ck wrote: post #45
firasd wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think network operators around the world are receptive to ‘zero-​rating’ certain websites (which is all Free Basics really is) whereas making free data available with a usage cap or speed cap would be something new. Facebook is not actually providing access or building infrastructure (under this program), they are teaming up with ISPs.

Some one have to pay the ISP for the service they are providing. Suppose that Facebook is providing access to all websites in free basics. Where is the business model in that. How can Facebook profit from that? May be what Facebook is saying is right: “We are not against net neutrality”, but there is no way on earth that they could provide such service for free. What are they suppose to do? Give people free access to…

If internet.org is about Free Facebook, they should at least drop the veneer of philanthropy. Argue in favor of zero-rating with everyone else who wants to cut these deals.

In the end such exceptions will be a disaster for the tech industry: if Netflix is available without data charges why would you ever use a competitor? If you can do Bing searches for free why would you Google and pay more? Plus it's a regulatory issue (mobile networks are licensed to provide internet, not specific services) and potentially a consumer-protection/anti-trust issue.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#50

Post by Ar-Curunir »

Jonanin wrote: post #27
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather not have Western companies filter what Indians can and cannot have under the assumption that India is too poor or backwards to get its shit done.

That isn't anyone's assumption. These people are too underprivileged to know or care about your "walled gardens" and "ecosystems". It's supposed to be a good enough intermediate step to drastically improve the poor's access to information. Yes, it's good for Facebook, obviously, but this is not a zero sum game. The choice to use any better competing service that comes along will always exist. No one else is willing t…

No, this is precisely digital imperialism. Being underprivileged does NOT mean that these people should not have privacy and security.

Currently, for lots of phones still used in India, using internet.org means NO HTTPS. So FB (and any other eavesdropping party) gets to snoop on your data and browsing habits. It's not about a walled garden, it's about basic human rights.

The last time the West tried to save backwards people, they stole and murdered and raped their way to wealth. We don't need any more generosity from the West.

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