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Fuck the Cloud (2009)

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Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#151

Post by kybernetyk »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #85
kybernetyk wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you control Amazon? No? Then you're not the captain - you're just a sailor and someone else is in control of your data. Now go put your stuff up on S3 but please keep a backup of the things you upload there.

I do keep a back up of things, but the back up is on S3 because that is the most stable storage option available to me. Everything else is the risky copy. >Do you control Amazon? No? Then you're not the captain This is textbook NIH syndrome. Rather than looking at the relative probabilities you look at something from an ideological perspective. Your argument isn't "Its safer with me" its "I want to be in control of i…

> This is textbook NIH syndrome.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use S3. You should just make sure that it's not the only service you have the only copy of your data hosted.

>Rather than looking at the relative probabilities you look at something from an ideological perspective.

No, I'm looking here solely at the risk of putting all your eggs into a basket you don't control.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#152

Post by nsfyn55 »

jacquesm wrote: post #142
nsfyn55 wrote: post #139

Really a DOX bro? That company went under anyway(because it was financially unstable not because I chose to use S3 to host their site), but interestingly the page you've found has been continuously hosted (without even a minute of downtime) for almost 3 years. It also hasn't seen one minute of administration time since 2013. But seriously your tact shows you are a piece of shit.

First off, I'm not your 'bro'. And what do you mean a DOX, you yourself wrote that on this very site. Or are you saying that you consider yourself anonymous from hereon in and therefore get to spout whatever nonsense you feel like and invite people to do dumb stuff 'because you said so' and we should ignore this in the context of your other postings? I'm responding to you the way I do because you run (or apparently,…

Bro was a pejorative friend. To be clear I never attacked you. Not once. I called your arguments into question, but that is what we are doing here. I believe your reasoning to be specious.

>I'm a piece of shit because you disagree with me, but it just so happens that you've been all over this thread with a continuous stream of purposeful mis-understandings and/or downright trolling.

This is just not true. I called you that because you tried to do just that to me. A quick re-read of all my comments and I'm sure you'll see I never made any personal reference to you. Now if you consider me telling you that you are incorrect an attack then I'm sorry this is something you'll need to get used to. In this case because you are wrong.

I've offered you ample opportunity to proffer a statistical argument, but all you can give me is "if I didn't build its not safe" Sorry friend I just don't trust you. I've been doing this a long time and I don't trust myself.

I never told someone to do something "cause I said so" but then again you never address the meat of my position. "Cloud providers have much lower failure rates than you historically I trust them more than I do you when building my understanding of the risks". Its trivial to undermine my position. Show you have lower failure rates than a prime time storage provider(bonus points if its amazon).

Lets just a get a few non sequitars that you can't seem to get your head wrapped around. I never said don't have a back up. I said the back up in the cloud is the most durable one.

I never said amazon couldn't fail. I just said the chances they fail vs. you are orders of magnitude lower.

I never said you were bad at your job. I said you seem to have a shaky grasp on statistics and possible a fair amount of NIH syndrome.

You are correct my anecdote doesn't prove my point, but it provides anecdotal evidence to corroborate my statistical position.

I didn't say "don't be open or transparent" I said pulling a persons personal details into an internet argument crosses a very clear line.

Get over yourself and remember not everyone that disagrees with you is trying to undermine your career. But you step over a line with you get personal and start pulling personal details into an internet conversation.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#153

Post by nsfyn55 »

LordKano wrote: post #141
nsfyn55 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you can't trust the FDIC they are government insured. And governments collapse all the time. I gave an example. Like a I said there is only one safe place for your money. Thats in your own private bank that you build and maintain yourself.

When is the last time the FDIC failed versus the last time an online storage vendor folded?

Its true that FDIC has lost fewer deposits than S3 has lost objects, but as usual there is a caveat. There are 2,000,000,000,000 objects in S3. In order to make a comparison the FDIC would have to insure over 300 deposits for every man, woman, and child on the planet and maintain a failure rate of '0.000000001%' or The FDIC would have to operate in its current state continuously for many millennia without interruption. I don't get a sense that the contrarians here appreciate the numbers involved.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#154

Post by jacquesm »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #133
jacquesm wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will a contract save your ass if your data is lost? You can't outsource your responsibility.

What is it with you?Will all your home brew nonsense save your ass when your data is lost. I am basing all of my arguments on "what is the statistically most likely to fail" and "given limited resources where would you store your authoritative copy". The answers to these are "whatever you come up with will have a higher likelihood of failure" and "the authoritative copy goes into the cloud" You must be a terrible gam…

> "whatever you come up with will have a higher likelihood of failure"

This is where you are simply wrong.

> "the authoritative copy goes into the cloud"

This we agree on.

So, where you are wrong is this: you are only considering technical failure modes but there are many others besides and so any comparison between 'the cloud' and 'your get-out-jail-free-card-backup' would have to be in terms taking into account all modes of failure, not just the technical ones and then on top of that you'd have to consider the likelihood of the backup failing to restore at the same time that the primary system goes down for whatever reason (including technical ones).

That's why I call it a blind spot, even after being told in 20 different ways that the uptime of Amazon does not come into play here you are still clinging to that. It is simply not relevant because that's not the scenario a back-up will most likely prevent against. It will also prevent against that scenario, on top of the ones where someone incapacitated by drugs, anger, depression or any one of another set of circumstances decides to take it out on your company. Or maybe someone makes an honest mistake (I've been called out twice in my career to restore data for companies that had been wiped out because of simple mistakes that should have never ever happened).

So back-ups are not a luxury, they are a necessity and the degree to which Amazon can outperform your back-up in terms of availability is not a factor in the whole discussion.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#155

Post by jacquesm »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #152
jacquesm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I'm not your 'bro'. And what do you mean a DOX, you yourself wrote that on this very site. Or are you saying that you consider yourself anonymous from hereon in and therefore get to spout whatever nonsense you feel like and invite people to do dumb stuff 'because you said so' and we should ignore this in the context of your other postings? I'm responding to you the way I do because you run (or apparently,…

Bro was a pejorative friend. To be clear I never attacked you. Not once. I called your arguments into question, but that is what we are doing here. I believe your reasoning to be specious. >I'm a piece of shit because you disagree with me, but it just so happens that you've been all over this thread with a continuous stream of purposeful mis-understandings and/or downright trolling. This is just not true. I called yo…

You're stuck in the groove of statistics. You will need to look further - and maybe gain a bit more experience in IT - to understand that PEOPLE and not the reliability of hard-drives or the uptime of cloud services are what make back-ups a vital necessity of any IT business.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#156

Post by LordKano »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #153
LordKano wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time the FDIC failed versus the last time an online storage vendor folded?

Its true that FDIC has lost fewer deposits than S3 has lost objects, but as usual there is a caveat. There are 2,000,000,000,000 objects in S3. In order to make a comparison the FDIC would have to insure over 300 deposits for every man, woman, and child on the planet and maintain a failure rate of '0.000000001%' or The FDIC would have to operate in its current state continuously for many millennia without interruptio…

You're evading.

When was the last time the FDIC failed versus the last time an online storage vendor folded?

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#157

Post by nsfyn55 »

jacquesm wrote: post #148
nsfyn55 wrote: post #145

I don't think you are my bro. And I want to be clear your moded and nonsensical jabbering is not why you are a piece of shit. An attempt to call attention to my potential customers in a forum because you disagree with me is why you are a piece of shit. So its cleared up me "offering nothing but objective fact, statistical argument, and well formed conjecture" you "anecdotes, personal attacks, and general butt hurtine…

> And I want to be clear your moded and nonsensical jabbering is not why you are a piece of shit. Ah ok, that's what caused it. Well, that's fine but there is probably an aggregate several 100 years worth of experience in this thread that seems to be in violent agreement on you not really understanding the matter under consideration. > An attempt to call attention to my potential customers in a forum because you disa…

You are misunderstanding me( I know sit seems to be a common pattern for you) whether I stand behind what I say is totally separate concept from your motivations and how they reflect on you as a person. The quality of my technical reputation is not in question here and my employer is welcome to read this thread.

I didn't call you an "alarmist" I said worrying about whether amazon will stay in business, "get hacked", or if S3 is going to disappear without warning is "alarmism" They were responsible for 39% of all commercial internet transactions last year and store 2,000,000,000,000 objects. If they go under we are are all in a heap of trouble. A NAS device in some remote part of the netherlands isn't going to save us.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#158

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #148
nsfyn55 wrote: post #145

I don't think you are my bro. And I want to be clear your moded and nonsensical jabbering is not why you are a piece of shit. An attempt to call attention to my potential customers in a forum because you disagree with me is why you are a piece of shit. So its cleared up me "offering nothing but objective fact, statistical argument, and well formed conjecture" you "anecdotes, personal attacks, and general butt hurtine…

> And I want to be clear your moded and nonsensical jabbering is not why you are a piece of shit. Ah ok, that's what caused it. Well, that's fine but there is probably an aggregate several 100 years worth of experience in this thread that seems to be in violent agreement on you not really understanding the matter under consideration. > An attempt to call attention to my potential customers in a forum because you disa…

[deleted]

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#159

Post by ciupicri »

tremon wrote: post #35
goodcall wrote: post #20

Don't we keep our entire life's savings in companies aka banks that we don’t run, don’t control, don’t buy, don’t administrate, and don’t really understand.

Our life's savings are not unique, and can be replenished from a different source. Our childhood pictures and personal correspondence are, and generally can not. Besides, banks are subject to rather a lot of external control, through regulation (oh noes!). Here in NL the government actually guarantees your savings (but not investments) should a bank go belly-up. I believe the US did something similar, although I didn…

By the way, as far as I know all the banks from the European Union guarantees savings up to 50,000 euros, some even more. And if you have more money, you can split them between multiple banks.
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