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Fuck the Cloud (2009)

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Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#131

Post by nsfyn55 »

jacquesm wrote: post #104
nsfyn55 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but once again this problem is statistical in nature. Admittedly the cloud isn't perfect but the question remains. Does the "Counter Party" risk outweigh the chances that my home spun solution would fail? Since the likelihood of failure on my part is orders of magnitude higher then the "counter party" risk would have to be huge, like really enormous. e.g Amazon would constantly have to be on the brink of imminen…

The idea here, and you seem to miss this point entirely is that for your company to fail then both systems would have to fail simultaneously. That is why you have back-ups. Any one system can fail, but for two systems (both the original and the back-up) to fail catastrophically at the same time is statistically very unlikely, and with a back-up here I am just talking about a secondary system that just pulls the data…

And what you keep missing the point on is that Im not saying don't have a personal copy. I am saying if you have multiple copies the safest one is undoubtedly in the cloud and by no small margin.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#132

Post by DougWebb »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #119
alextgordon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read this and then consider if you ever want to write something like it. https://www.facebook.com/orainwikihosting/

Once again. I only entertain statistical arguments. This anecdotal nonsense is for the birds. Any given service can fail at any time. This is known kaleesi. You can poop out case after case of some shit wiki platform losing your bird watching posts and it won't make a lick of difference. You need to show me that its better with the magic of statistics. Should be easy peasy show me that you have lost less data(proport…

"Have you ever..." is the wrong question when it comes to risk management; the right questions are "Is is possible...", "How likely...", "How can you avoid..." and "What's the cost to avoid...".

Have you ever been killed in a car accident? No? Then I guess you don't need a seatbelt, right? Has your house been burnt down by a lightning strike? No? Then no lightning rods and proper grounding for you, right?

You don't wait until a disaster occurs before you put a disaster recovery plan in place.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#133

Post by nsfyn55 »

jacquesm wrote: post #122
nsfyn55 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I guess I can see that. But then again I would never give important data to a 3rd party without some sort of contractual arrangement.

How will a contract save your ass if your data is lost? You can't outsource your responsibility.

What is it with you?Will all your home brew nonsense save your ass when your data is lost. I am basing all of my arguments on "what is the statistically most likely to fail" and "given limited resources where would you store your authoritative copy". The answers to these are "whatever you come up with will have a higher likelihood of failure" and "the authoritative copy goes into the cloud" You must be a terrible gambler. "Will playing the odds save your ass if you lose your money on good bet" no. But making good bets will increase your return regardless of the outcome of any given bet.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#135

Post by matwood »

nsfyn55 wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your control panel gets hacked and you lose all your data. See: codespaces.com (assuming it wasn't an inside job or a dumb mistake, but even then the same rules apply). So no, DON'T BLOW ANYTHING INTO THE CLOUD THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY OF. It has nothing to do with 'not invented here', it has everything to do with your inability to outsource your responsibilities. The degree to which people rely on others to…

> Until your control panel gets hacked and you lose all your data This is just alarmism. If you really wanted to demonstrate your point you would show me some data. The data would demonstrate that over the millions and millions of users on a number of cloud platforms that their rates of data loss are significantly higher than your "home spun" storage. Then you would take out the outliers and show an honest distributi…

It is not alarmism at all. All it takes is a single pissed off employee or a single fat fingered command and an entire business can be wiped out. Coming from the database world it the saying was there are people who are crazy about backups and there are people who have not needed their backups...yet. For some reason everyone ends up having to learn the hard way.

I also not advocating against the cloud, just that a single copy in S3 is not a backup solution.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#136

Post by phinullfermata »

Domenic_S wrote: post #84
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your control panel gets hacked and you lose all your data. See: codespaces.com (assuming it wasn't an inside job or a dumb mistake, but even then the same rules apply). So no, DON'T BLOW ANYTHING INTO THE CLOUD THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY OF. It has nothing to do with 'not invented here', it has everything to do with your inability to outsource your responsibilities. The degree to which people rely on others to…

The 3-2-1 rule is a rule for a reason. 3 copies 2 formats 1 copy off-site The cloud is a great place for that 1 off-site copy.

Modern 3-2-1:

3 backup services 2 formats 1 local copy

I guess that could get expensive depending on the services.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#137

Post by Sanddancer »

callumlocke wrote: post #62
pjc50 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S3 seems great today, and is undoubtedly more technically reliable than any home solution, but history is littered with companies that closed down on very short notice leaving their users' data deleted or inaccessible. Not to mention that billing disputes or legal action could also affect your ability to get data from them. (Jason Scott is speaking from experience here, as one of the people called in to do emergency…

> history is littered with companies that closed down on very short notice leaving their users' data deleted or inaccessible That's absurdly unlikely to happen with S3.

Pull out the more general example. Unexpected shit happens. A bad code push deletes data, a disgruntled employee decides to leave a "present" after they leave, etc. All things that have happened before. Having a backup away from production makes it much more easy to recover from unplanned outages.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#138

Post by nsfyn55 »

DougWebb wrote: post #132
nsfyn55 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again. I only entertain statistical arguments. This anecdotal nonsense is for the birds. Any given service can fail at any time. This is known kaleesi. You can poop out case after case of some shit wiki platform losing your bird watching posts and it won't make a lick of difference. You need to show me that its better with the magic of statistics. Should be easy peasy show me that you have lost less data(proport…

"Have you ever..." is the wrong question when it comes to risk management; the right questions are "Is is possible...", "How likely...", "How can you avoid..." and "What's the cost to avoid...". Have you ever been killed in a car accident? No? Then I guess you don't need a seatbelt, right? Has your house been burnt down by a lightning strike? No? Then no lightning rods and proper grounding for you, right? You don't w…

This is a misrepresentation. The "Have you ever" was to demonstrate a point. There are armies of IT housemen that believe they are better than securing data than the major storage providers. This attitude is pretty pervasive and patently nonsense. My point was to get them thinking. If you in your entire career have lost even a single byte of data. You are statistically missing the mark(in terms of data loss) by orders of magnitude. S3 is stupidly resilient. So much so that no amount of raid configs, backups, and redundancy on the part of the joker in the corner cubicle will ever even be even close.

So getting back to risk management. So we about to make a QB selection for the big game. Now that we understand that the implementation of folks like jaque here are like the 12 year old pee wee standout vs. the cloud provider's seasoned NFL quarterback. Which one do you pick to safe guard your business.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#139

Post by nsfyn55 »

Really a DOX bro? That company went under anyway(because it was financially unstable not because I chose to use S3 to host their site), but interestingly the page you've found has been continuously hosted (without even a minute of downtime) for almost 3 years. It also hasn't seen one minute of administration time since 2013. But seriously your tact shows you are a piece of shit.

Re: Fuck the Cloud (2009)

#140

Post by nsfyn55 »

LordKano wrote: post #130
nsfyn55 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you keep your money in a shoe box under your bed or stuffed in your mattress? I'd hope no, but then that begs the question "where do you keep it?" I'd assume not in a bank because any bank can fail at any moment and they are only insured by an instutition as flaky at the United States Treasury department. Governments collapse all the time just ask the Soviet Union. Right? The failure probabilities are relative. An…

I'd assume not in a bank because any bank can fail at any moment and they are only insured by an instutition as flaky at the United States Treasury department. Governments collapse all the time just ask the Soviet Union. Right? If you bank fails, you will be made whole with money from the FDIC. Money is fungible. Any money will do. Data is not similarly fungible. There's no IT FDIC to replace your lost data with othe…

Oh you can't trust the FDIC they are government insured. And governments collapse all the time. I gave an example. Like a I said there is only one safe place for your money. Thats in your own private bank that you build and maintain yourself.
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