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Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

nautil.us

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Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#51

Post by _ywdj »

stouset wrote: post #40
astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

Unfortunately, there are two types of depression, neither of which seemingly have anything to do with one-another. One is situational depression, where you're unhappy because, well, shit sucks. The other is clinical depression which can happen completely independent of your life circumstances.

Yeah I used to believe that but having but having lived through a lengthy episode of being in a somewhat depressed and fatigued state, and having researched and observed it in myself and others, I no longer buy that depression can "happen completely independent of your life circumstances".

The main reason for this is that it's fallacious to think that your emotions are "completely independent of your life circumstances". They're symbiotic.

I was born into modest privilege and had an upbringing that was free of abuse or major trauma, and the only things that have gone severely wrong for me in life have been through my own poor decisions.

Yet I can now easily see how the depression I've experienced was due to a combination of living in a somewhat unhealthy environment and having a propensity to respond to that environment by becoming depressed and fatigued. I can now see the same applies to everyone else I know of who experiences depression.

The explanation you've given is embraced by mental health professionals as it allows them to justify attempting to cure it with pharmaceuticals and short therapy consultations, but as the data shows, that approach has a pretty low success rate.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#52

Post by _ywdj »

manmal wrote: post #43
johnchristopher wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? Well, no you can't because it seems a lot of people with really good life are just struck by it. Although I believe the environment (physical, emotional, relational [edit: in recovery or/and prevention]) plays a huge role there still seems to be something extra going on.

They might have a good life now, but experienced bad things in their first 6 years - left alone too long, suppressed by relatives, outcast at kindergarten... We are so formable in those years, and dents are easy to be made that don't go away all by themself.

Or, they might have what looks like a good life to outsiders - eg super-rich celebrities with lifestyles idealised by the media - but actually living it is hell.

But I still strongly agree with your point. My strongest influence on this stuff is The Biology of Belief by Bruce Lipton, who explains how it all works on a cellular and genetic level.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#53

Post by cypherpunks01 »

gonehome wrote: post #47
lilcarlyung wrote: post #25

What with the pro-drug posts here all the time. I'm guessing that most of the HN audience is American. Is it common among techies in the U.S. to experiment with psychoactive drugs, hence the interest and knowledge? Please, do not mention Steve Jobs acid experiences.

I'd guess that more than half of people I know in tech have tried or occasionally do psychedelic drugs (LSD, Psilocybin, MDMA). There does seem to be a correlation with an interest in them and computers going all the way back to the beginning. If you're interested in the history I found What the Dormouse Said to be pretty interesting. http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Pers...

Much like the old quote 'two big things came out of Berkeley CA - LSD and BSD, and we don't believe this to be a coincidence'. Not technically true, but I believe the spirit is right.

Francis Crick, Kary Mullis, Steve Jobs, Feynman, and many other of the most well known scientists and engineers of the past 50 years have gotten such a personal and creative benefit from psychedelics that they have publicly spoken about it despite their schedule 1 status.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#54

Post by pc2g4d »

johnchristopher wrote: post #35
astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

> This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? Well, no you can't because it seems a lot of people with really good life are just struck by it. Although I believe the environment (physical, emotional, relational [edit: in recovery or/and prevention]) plays a huge role there still seems to be something extra going on.

Many people who believe they are just being struck randomly by depression are simply not aware of the reasons they are feeling depressed. That doesn't mean there aren't emotional/psychological reasons for what they're experiencing---only that they don't see those things as the cause.

For the first decade or so after being diagnosed with depression I believed it could only be explained by brain chemistry or something like that. Only later in life when I learned more about healthy relationships and what does and doesn't work for me emotionally did I realize that my depression was an obvious reaction to the dysfunctional environment I was raised in.

My ignorance of the non-chemical causes of my depression made me feel I was "just struck by it". But there really was a cause in my environment. I believe this is true for many other people as well.

Depression and anxiety in particular I think are better explained as a mismatch between human adaptation and current human environment. They are signals that things are unsafe/insecure. It seems to me more wise to focus on improving our environment than on constantly blaming the brain, whether through the serotonin hypothesis or this new neuroconnectivity approach.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#56

Post by _ywdj »

astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

Yes, you can certainly get some acknowledgement of this from me, having lived it and researched it for many years (and also having succeeded in overcoming it by accepting this position).

Sure the propensity to feel depressed in response to a given experience may differ from person to person, but it is a product of evolution, and is far too common to be pathologised as a "disorder".

We have this assumption that a materially privileged life in a rich society should entitle us to a life of happiness, and any divergence from that is an "illness".

This ignores the fact that there is much that is unhealthy about modern western society, and the proliferation of depression among seemingly well-off people in rich societies is a natural reaction to that.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#57

Post by sean-duffy »

_ywdj wrote: post #51
stouset wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there are two types of depression, neither of which seemingly have anything to do with one-another. One is situational depression, where you're unhappy because, well, shit sucks. The other is clinical depression which can happen completely independent of your life circumstances.

Yeah I used to believe that but having but having lived through a lengthy episode of being in a somewhat depressed and fatigued state, and having researched and observed it in myself and others, I no longer buy that depression can "happen completely independent of your life circumstances". The main reason for this is that it's fallacious to think that your emotions are "completely independent of your life circumstanc…

What you're describing is "exogenous depression", which occurs due to environmental causes. Its existence doesn't change the fact that a lot of people suffer from endogenous depression, which requires no external circumstances or stimuli. A lot of mental illness can be summarised as people reacting to things with the wrong emotions or the wrong intensity of emotion, and some forms of depression fall under this category.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#58

Post by kaybe »

Igglyboo wrote: post #30
lilcarlyung wrote: post #25

What with the pro-drug posts here all the time. I'm guessing that most of the HN audience is American. Is it common among techies in the U.S. to experiment with psychoactive drugs, hence the interest and knowledge? Please, do not mention Steve Jobs acid experiences.

It is very common in my experience. Google, Microsoft, Apple, and every tech company I've ever applied to (even small midwestern shops) do not drug test. The FBI has a problem hiring good security experts because of their strict drug testing policies. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023044227045795743...

Are employer drugtests common in the US, even for non-critical work?

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#59

Post by choicewords »

astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

Or the fixation with materialism as the end all be all

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#60

Post by peter303 »

openasocket wrote: post #50

I'm skeptical of the long term benefits of Ketamine. It seems odd to give an anesthetic, a depressant, to someone with depression. They claim it reduces the risk of suicide and works quickly, but is that due to a curative neurological effect or is it just because you've given them a sedative? Not to mention the side effects: memory loss, delusions, psychosis, even schizophrenia-like symptoms. Sure, these tend to happ…

Its claimed a stimulant helps hyperactive children. Similarly unintuitive.
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