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Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

nautil.us

41–50 of 156 posts

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#41

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

> This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? Well, no you can't because it seems a lot of people with really good life are just struck by it. Although I believe the environment (physical, emotional, relational [edit: in recovery or/and prevention]) plays a huge role there still seems to be something extra going on.

Maybe a distinction should be made between people who are aware of their source of depression and people who are not? Like it makes sense to be depressed if you're living in abject poverty. People can point to it and say I know why I'm depressed. That seems different from someone who lives in a secure environment, feels valued, has meaningful relationships, engages in rewarding work, etc. All these things that should lead to a happy life but this person still feels bad. That's definitely a different thing, no?

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#42

What with the pro-drug posts here all the time. I'm guessing that most of the HN audience is American. Is it common among techies in the U.S. to experiment with psychoactive drugs, hence the interest and knowledge? Please, do not mention Steve Jobs acid experiences.

It is very common in my experience. Google, Microsoft, Apple, and every tech company I've ever applied to (even small midwestern shops) do not drug test. The FBI has a problem hiring good security experts because of their strict drug testing policies. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023044227045795743...

Strangely enough, the Department of Defense doesn't drug test (most) new employees.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#43

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

> This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? Well, no you can't because it seems a lot of people with really good life are just struck by it. Although I believe the environment (physical, emotional, relational [edit: in recovery or/and prevention]) plays a huge role there still seems to be something extra going on.

They might have a good life now, but experienced bad things in their first 6 years - left alone too long, suppressed by relatives, outcast at kindergarten... We are so formable in those years, and dents are easy to be made that don't go away all by themself.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#44
The full article title is "A Vaccine for Depression?: Ketamine's effect holsters a new theory of mental illness." I have mixed feelings about posts being required to suffer from the title, as this is often an editorial rather than an authorial decision, but the submerged gist of the article, the novel content, is indeed the suggestion that Ketamine could be used as a "vaccine" for post-traumatic stress disorder.

A few words about new theories. All new theories that can garner such enthusiasm for their presentation are invariably bolstered by something. No-one writes magazine articles about ambiguous signals from an exciting new theory. If the evidence presented is not in some way definitive, then it should be viewed as a precondition for the propagation of the theory, not evidence in favour of it. Few of us are expert judges of neurological theories, and we are not able to tell if there is anything substantial beyond the feeling that we experience that something valuable has been learned.

I know that the effects of Ketamine in treating serious episodic depression are very exciting. I feel that I understand enough to suggest that neuroplasticity is not an especially 'new' theory, or a 'theory' by itself. The neuroplastic response is real, well documented, and undisputed. What is a theory, and had not been established as fact, the last time I discussed it with someone, is that idea that the neuroplastic response is the central intermediary between the physical effect of the drug and the clinical effect of the drug. It occurs, but it had not been established that it is causal.

The central suggestion regarding the 'vaccine' effect seemed to be buried a bit in the article (unless I missed something in skimming), but it is the actual new information, which is interesting and heartening. Soldiers coming to a forward operating medical station with severe burns were treated with Ketamine rather than another anaesthetic because of its relative safety. They subsequently developed PTSD half as often as all soldiers and civilians treated for less or equally severe burns with other anaesthetics.

On the basis of the theory that PTSD and depression emerge an erosion of neurosynaptic connections, the leap is made from there to the idea that Ketamine might perhaps serve as a true 'vaccine' when people were going into high-stress situations. From my relatively uneducated perspective, this seems a bit irresponsible in two separate ways.

Firstly, the evidence is that the soldiers were 'vaccinated' against psychological disturbances associated with extreme trauma... after the initial extreme trauma had occurred. There is evidence from studies with mice that a Ketamine treatment changes their response to stressors in a way that seems both dramatic and positive. Ketamine is a common recreational drug. If we should be excited about the prospect of this response being replicated in humans, then why is there not already ample evidence that this response is replicated in humans?

Secondly, there is absolutely no reason that we should conclude that the effect of the Ketamine on the burn victims has anything to do with neuroplastic response. Ketamine is an anesthetic. It limits pain, which is traumatic. Anesthetics operate in different ways. Ketamine seems to inhibit the transmission of pain signals in the spinal cord. This prevents them from reaching the limbic system. Other forms of anesthesia may not. Ketamine is, infamously, an amnesic and a dissociative. Stress disorders require memory formation. Ketamine prevents memory formation. Other forms of anesthesia may not. And so on. In the context of the surfeit of plausible explanations for this effect, to suggest that the effect is particular evidence supporting a theory that PTSD is cured by neuroplastic regeneration of synaptic connections is not particularly responsible. It might not be terrible journalism, but it is definitely bad science, and almost certainly not something that was presented as science to the journalist.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? Well, no you can't because it seems a lot of people with really good life are just struck by it. Although I believe the environment (physical, emotional, relational [edit: in recovery or/and prevention]) plays a huge role there still seems to be something extra going on.

Maybe a distinction should be made between people who are aware of their source of depression and people who are not? Like it makes sense to be depressed if you're living in abject poverty. People can point to it and say I know why I'm depressed. That seems different from someone who lives in a secure environment, feels valued, has meaningful relationships, engages in rewarding work, etc. All these things that should…

During times when I lack rewarding work and relationships, I get diagnosed with clinical depression. During times when I have those things, I feel great. I don't think everybody will ever agree on the distinction.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#46

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

I hear this sentiment a lot. Psychologists are aware of this distinction. In the DSM one of the requirements for a diagnosis of clinical depression is that the symptoms are not due to bereavement. While psychiatry and pills are often talked about in the context of depression, there are psychologists and talk therapy also. If you haven't, I recommend seeing a psychologist.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#47

What with the pro-drug posts here all the time. I'm guessing that most of the HN audience is American. Is it common among techies in the U.S. to experiment with psychoactive drugs, hence the interest and knowledge? Please, do not mention Steve Jobs acid experiences.

I'd guess that more than half of people I know in tech have tried or occasionally do psychedelic drugs (LSD, Psilocybin, MDMA). There does seem to be a correlation with an interest in them and computers going all the way back to the beginning.

If you're interested in the history I found What the Dormouse Said to be pretty interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Pers...

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#48

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

I have also been depressed for a significant fraction of my life, a period that spanned over two decades. In my case it was primarily caused by what was called "anxiety" until recently and is now generally called a "stress disorder," but for most of that period the stress disorder was entirely cryptic; I had no idea that I was a particularly 'anxious' or fearful person.

I can tell you that my condition eventually responded dramatically to medication, and that I would not be able to live the life I live now if it were not for that medication; furthermore, that because of the medication and my experience during the years I have been on it, I can look forwards to continuing to reduce my dependence on that medication.

Depression is indeed a normal response to ongoing helplessness and despair. I probably share your experience of depression in this regard, because the 'depression' that I had been treated for for years was suddenly completely irrelevant the moment my brain finally responded to medication.

However, there are several things that this account leaves out. You can't scoff and say that depression is just an normal response any more than people can scoff and say the reason you don't want to take a shower is because you're lazy. For one, as you know, depression can be very self-perpetuating. People come to believe things that keep them depressed, ruminating on their depressed state over and over again. People always see verification and never contradiction of their worldview, even though the entire world has somehow failed to just lay down and die over the course of many thousands of years, which is what it would do if that understanding of reality was valid. And people very definitely do encounter depression that does not have a proximate external cause to justify the response; many of those Afghanis, for instance, will suffer from the bleakest of depressions for many years after the wars in Afghanistan are ended. All of these things constitute a medical condition. If you don't like the word "illness" because of how it makes you feel, I can sympathize. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that depression is something that frequently does become a genuine medical problem and frequently does require a solution beyond the reach of the person suffering from it.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#49
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about above, but I used to (~1yr ago) buy NSI-189 from THT.CO and other sources compiled/tested by the reddit r/nootropics community. Apparently since then, Neuralstem has sent cease & desist letters to all of the companies selling it, and sources have since been spotty. Also I know that some group buys/syntheses have been coordinated on Longecity.

Did it work for you? Any side effects?

I used it for a couple months at the oral dose that the early phase NIH clinical trial found to be effective. I did feel like i got a positive benefit from it with no side effects, though didn't do any extensive blind testing myself so it's purely anecdotal. I found it to lift some constant anxieties a bit, and help guide my overall outlook on life more positively.

That said, I did find ketamine to be an extremely effective anti depressant with the primary effects being immediately noticeable and positive. I currently re-dose on ketamine every couple months and take bupropion daily--between all of these I've been able to greatly reduce fairly severe depression that went untreated and worsened over a 10+ yr period.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#50
I'm skeptical of the long term benefits of Ketamine. It seems odd to give an anesthetic, a depressant, to someone with depression. They claim it reduces the risk of suicide and works quickly, but is that due to a curative neurological effect or is it just because you've given them a sedative? Not to mention the side effects: memory loss, delusions, psychosis, even schizophrenia-like symptoms. Sure, these tend to happen at higher doses, but the long term effects of low doses have not been studied thoroughly.
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