My positive experience as a woman in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#191

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #183

mycroft-holmes wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say you're absolutely correct. I laugh when I see feminist friends of mine who complain about "creepy" guys approaching them at coffee shops and days later they'll talk about how they hate being single and want to meet someone.

I'll be honest I'm usually in a coffee shop to study and read and think to myself or with a friend. I'd be creeped out if a total stranger got in my space to flirt with me out of nowhere. Some people need to have time to mentally prepare for certain types of social interaction.

I'm the same way with you, but that's also why I don't go to coffee shops to study/think. I'm simplifying and assuming a lot here, but: Why would you go out to a place like that for "alone time"?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#192

Post by mysticllama » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

SuperComputing wrote: post #111

indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

And the "sexism" debate was stirred by people who were only tangentially involved in Tech, like the PR person "Adria Richards". If you listen to actual women with actual Math, CS, or EE degrees, you'll hear a different story.

Look at the population of women in fields such as:law, medicine, social science, etc. and you'll see that STEM lags behind in parity. The percentage of women in computing, according to some studies, isn't much higher than it was in 1960! [2]

From my perspective as a software engineer, we work in a male-dominated field, and we've made the work culture and norms what we want them to be [1]. The few women who do end up on engineering tracks often leave, and in a lot of cases they move into engineering support roles (dev evangelist, marketing, etc.).

I think Adria Richards is a loud, exceptional example that doesn't tell the story here. The reality is, this is a very quiet, insidious problem; women are walking away from our field, or just not showing up.

I don't believe that half of the best of the best talent pool just doesn't want to do engineering like the other half. There's a reason they're disinclined, and I accept that I'm part of it -- I'd like to see it change, and I think we have a responsibility to do better. I believe that as an industry, our future suffers for it.

http://www.usnews.com/news/stem-index/articles/2015/06/29/ge... [1]

In 2013, only 26% of computing professionals were female — down considerably from 35% in 1990 and virtually the same as in 1960. While the percentage of women in engineering has risen since 1990, the progress is modest –rising from 9% in 1990 to 12% in 2013.

http://fortune.com/2015/03/26/report-the-number-of-women-ent... [2]

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#193

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:25 PM UTC

andrewvc wrote: post #138

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

What you say about 'if the female is attracted' is incredibly wrong, and I can speak from personal experience (as a guy). It's NOT about attraction, its about being, well, creepy. I didn't find this out till I started hitting the gym more and gay men started hitting on me more often (I'm straight and happily married for the record, so it's not about me being attracted or not). Here's what I learned: If the guy is dir…

You didn't actually cubano's point. You're straight so you weren't attracted to any of the guys who approached you. cubano was saying it would be different if you were approached by a woman you were interested in. Perhaps the indirectness would seem coy instead of creepy.

Then again, maybe not, but I'm not sure how to objectively measure this phenomenon. People are fickle and attractiveness is sort of a squishy concept. The confusion in this is the underpinning of certain subgenres of romantic comedy like Bridget Jones's Diary and Pride and Prejudice.

Besides, a lot of people are creepy when approaching members of the opposite sex because nobody cares to coach them on how to do it properly. And nobody cares to help them figure out the 'who's, 'where's, 'when's, and 'how's of approaching prospective partners.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#194

Post by reitanqild » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #187

reitanqild wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specified good because we both know not all cops are good. As for the soldiers that invaded Iraq I'd say you should judge the politicians first. I guess a lot of the soldiers felt a lot like the German soldiers that invaded certain European countries and were surprised to be shot at when they were told and many honestly thought they came to protect the locals against an imminent attack from British forces. Edit: an…

> Edit: and lets not forget that it was lame European pacifist politicians that let Hitler get so far. Actually Hitler was much beloved in the United States, right until quite close to the start of the war. Seen as a champion against communism -- like other murderers were later, e.g. Pinochet.

That sounds ugly, do you happen to have good sources?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#195

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:32 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #188

CaptSpify wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "tone deaf" and then makes dick jokes What does "tone deaf" mean in this context? And what's wrong with dick-jokes? EDIT: I've poorly worded my question/point: I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with dick jokes in the workplace, but context is key. It's probably best to side on safe in that regard I still would like to know what "tone deaf" means as I'm not understanding that term

Do you really think it's okay to make dick jokes in the workplace?

Yes, although I do work in a uniquely sex-positive environment. I do believe that it heavily depends on the workplace. Some workplaces it is absolutely not OK. I'm a personality type that would rather work in an "unprofessional" environment, so I seek those out, while understanding that they may not be for everybody.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#196

Post by newscracker » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:35 PM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #109

blowski wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Sexism is not identical to misogynism. Where the latter is about being nasty, sexism is believing something about somebody solely based on their gender. So if I assume you don't like pizza and football because you're female, so instead buy you frozen yoghurt, I'm being sexist even if it's with the nicest of intentions. We're all human and we all make mistakes, but sometimes people blow those mistakes out of…

>So if I assume you don't like pizza and football because you're female, so instead buy you frozen yoghurt, I'm being sexist even if it's with the nicest of intentions. If I'm buying my young niece a toy, and see two otherwise equal toys except one is blue and one is pink, is it sexist to choose the pink one? I have to make a choice, there is no non-colored toy. I only think it crosses into sexism if my niece told me…

> If I'm buying my young niece a toy, and see two otherwise equal toys except one is blue and one is pink, is it sexist to choose the pink one? I have to make a choice, there is no non-colored toy.

This is where knowing how these associations came into being could also help you and also help educate others (including your young niece). Several decades ago, the colors promoted were blue for girls and pink for boys. Today people would be surprised to know this, but what's important is realizing that this was all created by a group of people saying "this color is what is appropriate for this gender because...(prejudices)", which basically sounds ridiculous.

Here's an excerpt from an article [0] on Jezebel (I found it by searching for "girls blue boys pink"):

> From Smithsonian.com:

> Ladies' Home Journal article in June 1918 said, "The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl." Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti.

> In 1927, Time magazine printed a chart showing sex-appropriate colors for girls and boys according to leading U.S. stores. In Boston, Filene's told parents to dress boys in pink. So did Best & Co. in New York City, Halle's in Cleveland and Marshall Field in Chicago.

----------

Here's an excerpt from a similar article [1] from BBC that explains that there are no gender specific differences in babies/kids and that in adults blue is the most preferred by men and women:

> Various studies have looked at colour preferences in different age groups. In the US most have found that babies and toddlers, whether male or female, are attracted to primary colours such as red and blue. Pink doesn’t feature high on the list, although it is more popular than brown and grey. Some studies of this age group have found blue is favoured, others red, but they rarely find any gender difference.

> In 2007, research conducted at Newcastle University in the UK asked adults for their favourite colour. Did most of the women choose pink, or even red? No. The colour which came out top, for both men and women, was blue.

[0]: http://jezebel.com/5790638/the-history-of-pink-for-girls-blu...

[1]: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141117-the-pink-vs-blue-ge...

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#197

Post by FussyZeus » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

m0dc wrote: post #170

FussyZeus wrote: post #95

Personally I've only ever witnessed sexism at play in larger companies, startup culture by it's nature I think is anti-sexist, the highly competitive market for employees combined with the sense of "who gives a shit about genders, we gotta get this thing fixed NOW" kind of makes it a defacto meritocracy. Not to say that it can't happen in startups of course, just saying in the Perfect World, a startup culture would e…

Biases come into play even when judging supposedly objective things like technical merit. In a startup environment where every new hire has a huge impact on the outcome of the company, the subconsciously perceived 'safe bet' will always be to favor the person who talks and acts the most like a young Zuckerberg.

Must be a privilege of startups who have an ample amount of applicants to sift through. When you're in an area with a smaller tech industry, you need be a little more flexible to whats available.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#198

Post by nv-vn » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:36 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #153

Don't see why this was flagged. It us a well known fact that a lot of women thrive in tech. I've said this to many times already but I've been told by women how much they enjoy working with men because we are so straightforward. Edit: that said, didn't vote at all on this one, but flagged to death? No.

>Don't see why this was flagged Because some people would rather silence people who disagree with their opinions rather than debate them or just learn to live ignore them if it's too hard.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#199

Post by Joeboy » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:38 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #176

douche wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women really, really, don't want to be treated the way men treat each other when they get together without external sources of censure. Trust me on that.

A lot of men really really don't want to be treated like that either.

also lots of women seem pretty comfortable in blokeish social settings.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#200

Post by humanrebar » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 4:41 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #164

yummyfajitas wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it sexism to make assumptions that are probabilistically correct? Consider the following procedure: 1) For a woman I don't know, I buy her frozen yogurt. 2) For a man I don't know, I buy him pizza. Now suppose my stereotypes are actually accurate - i.e., P(likes froyo > pizza|woman) > 0.5 and P(likes pizza > froyo | man) > 0.5. This procedure, based purely on stereotypes, will make everyone happier than flipping a…

> Is it sexism to make assumptions that are probabilistically correct? Yes it's sexist, because assuming something about somebody based purely on their gender is precisely what sexism is. However, sometimes, in the face of limited data and limited resources to gather more data, being sexist might be the best possible course of action. The problem with the stereotypes of gender is that you are dealing with huge number…

> ...assuming something about somebody based purely on their gender is precisely what sexism is.

I'm going to challenge that definition. There are absolutely biological difference between men and women. When I offer to help a young woman carry her suitcase up stairs, am I being sexist because I assume she would appreciate the help?

The definition of sexism needs to have room for some reality or the definition is useless or even harmful.