I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views • Hacker News Board

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#181

Post by druddha » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:09 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #174

druddha wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mocking or looking down on people is generally a poor practice. However, it should not surprise someone in the sciences if they are passed over for job opportunities based on their religious beliefs. Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job.

> However, it should not surprise someone in the sciences if they are passed over for job opportunities based on their religious beliefs. In the US, its generally should, since its pretty blatantly illegal in virtually every case. > Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job. There may be some specific religious beliefs where that is true for some jobs (in the sciences or otherwise), but, i…

>In the US, its generally should, since its pretty blatantly illegal in virtually every case

A law that cannot be enforced isn't really a law. Making a case for religious discrimination is difficult. And the subject of this thread revolves around whether discriminating based on beliefs should be allowed. If you worked at Bain Capital and openly supported Bernie Sanders, would you be surprised to not get promotes?

> There may be some specific religious beliefs where that is true for some jobs (in the sciences or otherwise), but, in general, that's not even remotely true.

See my comment below regarding skepticism and science.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#182

Post by skissane » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:11 AM UTC

dd36 wrote: post #81

FussyZeus wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less a generalization of everyone who has a degree being incapable of performing that task (I'd imagine a lot would be able to figure it out, it's not complicated) and more the idea that knowledge which is highly useful such as that is viewed as being "beneath" knowledge such as a thorough understanding of the writings of Socrates. The catch there is that knowing Socrates isn't getting you off the side of the ro…

You had someone be rude to you because you know how to fix a car? As you said, that's a far easier skill to learn than say programming. However, I have never encountered such an attitude and have lived on both coasts. I think people greatly appreciate skilled mechanics, tradesmen, etc. all over the country. The best can usually charge a premium. That's no different on the coasts. I doubt this will be a popular opinio…

"Frankly, I think belief in the supernatural should be screenable in an employment application": screening prospective employees on the basis of their religious beliefs is illegal in many places. For example, in the US see http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm and in Australia see https://www.fairwork.gov.au/how-we-will-help/templates-and-g...

I think there are good reasons for these laws. If it is legal to discriminate in employment against religious minorities, that can contribute to their disconnection from broader society, which could promote radicalisation and similar problems. You also have to consider that there are many countries where religious discrimination is official government policy - how easy is it for an open atheist to get a job in Saudi Arabia? - and for Western countries to prohibit religious discrimination is a good way of sending a message about it at the global level (whether or not anyone in places like Saudi Arabia are listening.)

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#183

Post by isolate » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:12 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #151

"Why would they? There's been lots of noise lately about how conservatives don't respect science or the intellectual sphere. Why would they? They know we're politically biased." This is where it took a turn for me. I'm basically in agreement with everything else, and it's personally eye opening to gain a greater understanding of these kinds of biases, but when you take a few bad apples in the social sciences (literal…

> point blank denial of facts such as that of human-caused climate change

Science can't prove/disprove AGW because there's no control, which means that it isn't and can't be a fact.

(I believe we should assume AGW to be safe.)

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#184

Post by xupybd » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

BellsOnSunday wrote: post #79

FussyZeus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who does: Those of us who do are often raised in a very religious place among very religious people, it's a big part of our lives. Rationally, I have no reason to believe in any God. That's why it's called a belief. It's a lot more to do with the culture one grows up with than the belief itself, and anything you learn at such a young age is difficult to shake loose of completely. Personally, I use…

I was brought up amongst and by religious people too, so I don't automatically assume people are stupid for having beliefs. But I'm aware that is really just a rhetorical position on my part, and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously. That makes me vulnerab…

>and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously

Is this something you have to do regularly, make judgements on scientists based on their speculations of an afterlife?

Wouldn't it be far better to make judgments based on their contribution to their field?

Does this mean we should not take Francis S. Collins seriously?

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#185

Post by engi_nerd » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #178

engi_nerd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am really amazed that people are choosing to attack how you presented your rant rather than addressing the substance of it.

Are you really? Sincerely. Because these days, that seems to be the mode of "Debate" that is most popular, alas. I feel like anti-intellectualism has taken hold, such that "Debate" at its best is citing some authority (who usually isn't really an authority, eg: a politician taking a scientific position) and much more commonly engages in ad hominem of the form of attempting to discredit people as a form of argument.

I sincerely am, here, because one of the purposes of discussion here is to talk about ideas for what they are, not for the window-dressing that they're presented with.

In the vast majority of places, no, I'm not surprised at all.

I agree with what you're saying.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#186

Post by statictype » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:14 AM UTC

druddha wrote: post #141

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job. Sounds like an unsubstantiated belief to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_...

It's not a belief. I said "...may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job." Providing a list of Christian scientists does not disprove my statement. Obviously being religious doesn't necessarily mean you will perform at a lower level relative to your peers. But to borrow from Sam Harris, if you met a scientist who openly admitted to believing Elvis is still alive, would you hold the same opinion of them p…

if you met a scientist who openly admitted to believing Elvis is still alive, would you hold the same opinion of them professionally?

Basing your professional opinion of someone on anything other than their professional work strikes me as very 'unsciency'

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#187

Post by scarmig » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:15 AM UTC

isolate wrote: post #183

jolux wrote: post #151

"Why would they? There's been lots of noise lately about how conservatives don't respect science or the intellectual sphere. Why would they? They know we're politically biased." This is where it took a turn for me. I'm basically in agreement with everything else, and it's personally eye opening to gain a greater understanding of these kinds of biases, but when you take a few bad apples in the social sciences (literal…

> point blank denial of facts such as that of human-caused climate change Science can't prove/disprove AGW because there's no control, which means that it isn't and can't be a fact. (I believe we should assume AGW to be safe.)

By that standard, science also can't confirm human's shared ancestry with apes, or the Big Bang.

Science doesn't fit in a test tube.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#188

Post by seansmccullough » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:15 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #66

FussyZeus wrote: post #5

As someone who grew up in a strongly red area and with beliefs in that vein, I know EXACTLY the kind of exclusion that the author is talking about to a painful degree. For anyone who wants to experience it, walk into any Reddit discussion and tell everyone you're a devout Christian and watch the pseudo intellectuals exercise their "openness." And yes it's true I'm far from the most religious person there is, and I st…

It's amazing to me that the top-rated comment in this thread broadly generalizes both "coastal intellectuals" and "Middle America" with insulting stereotypes. I'm embarrassed that the upvoters of this comment actually agreed with this comment. One trip to Houston or Minneapolis is enough to verify the presence of a thriving arts and culture scene. The anti-intellectual Middle America trope is not factual. One trip to…

I agree, I'm from Iowa, there are lot's of smart people in Middle America. There are also a lot of condescending people on the Coasts.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#189

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:16 AM UTC

druddha wrote: post #181

dragonwriter wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it should not surprise someone in the sciences if they are passed over for job opportunities based on their religious beliefs. In the US, its generally should, since its pretty blatantly illegal in virtually every case. > Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job. There may be some specific religious beliefs where that is true for some jobs (in the sciences or otherwise), but, i…

>In the US, its generally should, since its pretty blatantly illegal in virtually every case A law that cannot be enforced isn't really a law. Making a case for religious discrimination is difficult. And the subject of this thread revolves around whether discriminating based on beliefs should be allowed. If you worked at Bain Capital and openly supported Bernie Sanders, would you be surprised to not get promotes? > T…

> A law that cannot be enforced isn't really a law. Making a case for religious discrimination is difficult.

To the extent that it is difficult to enforce, it is because it is difficult to know when it has occurred. But, that doesn't reduce the surprise one should have when one discovers that it has occurred, because that means that it is one of the cases where the problems that usually exist with discovering that it has occurred (and which pose a difficulty for enforcing the law) are not present, at least at their normal level.

> See my comment below regarding skepticism and science

Religious beliefs in general are not incompatible with skepticism on questions within the domain of science; some specific religious beliefs may be incompatible with skepticism in some areas of scientific inquiry, but, again, that's different than the generality posed.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#190

Post by spinlock » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

squozzer wrote: post #29

I offer as a hypothesis the belief that graduate study programs, even in hard sciences such as physics, aren't looking for scholars, but disciples.

Yup. My thesis advisor flat out told me to stop wasting my time with "crap" like neural nets. He came up in the time when they were disparaged by researchers competing for funding in AI so he didn't like them. He didn't care that I was using them to solve problems he was interested in, he wanted me to solve problems he was interested in using methods he approved of.