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Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

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Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#281

Post by x0x0 »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #188
dsg42 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he's from Sweden, which doesn't allow it's cities to reach this state. Western countries should not look like this.

Exactly. Except you can do that in Sweden because it has 9 million people and a tiny inhabited area in comparison.

The US will spend at least $637B on our military in 2015, which is, for example, between 6 and 7 times what China spends. We also wasted approximately 5-6 TRILLION dollars on the Iraq war for no coherent reason anybody can figure out, even after the fact.

It's priorities.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSB...

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#282

Post by cmiles74 »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #134
cmiles74 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It comes down to what you think of as a "consumer" of the water. Clearly, someone was using the water to dispose of these contaminants. I admit, it's not as clear-cut as, say, the use of water by the Coca-Cola Company. Regardless, my understanding is that Flint has no money, neither the individual constituents nor the city itself. Literally no one can pay to replace these old pipes. IMHO, the reason they switched wat…

In this case, the lead is in the water pipes, though. It's not the result of industry dumping waste into the river. (At least that's how I understand it.)

I agree, it sounds like the water from the river is more corrosive then their last source. The water is leaching out the lead and delivering it through the faucet. Another article suggests that the pipes will now leach lead into any water source for at least a couple of months.

Adding an anti-corrosive agent might have helped, but could introduce other issues (I don't know enough to know how much they would need to add and if it would be safe).

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#283

Post by pc86 »

smiddereens wrote: post #159
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm at a loss for words: Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

People tend to underestimate the number of garbage states in the US.

Something tells me you overestimate it.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#284

Post by chiph »

Maarten88 wrote: post #229
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Except you can do that in Sweden because it has 9 million people and a tiny inhabited area in comparison.

If Sweden can afford it, the US can as well. It's a matter of priorities.

It's also a matter of population density. If the people move away, the buildings they leave behind soon start to look like this.

There was a documentary on this (with mostly simulated desolation): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1433058/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#286

Post by pc86 »

fapjacks wrote: post #261
maratd wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand . Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time.…

> We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. We absolutely do not , and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. Europe has vastly less wealth disparity, and many more social welfare programs that ensure a pretty high degree of social mobility. The United States doesn't hold a candle to most of Europe in this regard. And you know something infuriating? My tax rate is only 1…

> Europe has vastly less wealth disparity

How does the income disparity between Flint and San Francisco compare to the income disparity between Luxembourg and Bulgaria? Between Germany and Romania?

> My tax rate is only 10% less where I live in the States than what it will be when I move to Sweden.

No. The Swedish deduction is $2,690 - in the US it's between $6,300 and $12,600. Not to mention that our federal tax rates top out at about 2/3 of the maximum Swedish tax rate (sub-40% compared to 59.7%). Highest state sales tax is under 12% while Swedish VAT is up to 25%. Not to mention capital gains in Sweden is twice what it is in the US unless you make nearly half a million a year, in which case it's only 10 points higher (30% v. 15%/20%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

> And your one citation is from the Heritage Foundation.

I would say the source has little relevance if what it's saying is accurate (which it is).

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#287

Post by zzalpha »

sedachv wrote: post #268
analyst74 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite US's overall economical and military dominance, the poor parts of US is really bad. Especially to people from other first-world countries who thought US is similar to their own country. For the Americans who have not traveled abroad, countries in northern Europe, Canada/Australia generally do not have the level of poverty some parts of US suffers.

In Canada (and Australia from what I have read, but not personally seen) the level of poverty in many Native towns is certainly comparable.

Umm, there are no "native towns" in Canada.

It's absolutely true that many of the indigenous reserves here are a living tragedy... in fact, like Australia, we have a long and shameful history with respect to our indigenous population, a history that we're still writing today (recently the CBC had to shut down comments on stories about indigenous issues due the quantity of hateful comments they attract).

That said, small town Canada can absolutely suffer as bad as anywhere in the US (just like America's coal and steel towns, it's not unusual for small towns to be dependent on a single industry, and if that industry suffers the town suffers...).

However, we don't tend to have the same level of urban blight and decay as you see in some American cities.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#288

Post by thephyber »

cylinder wrote: post #245
kbenson wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twice the area, 65% of the population. There are vast swathes of land that are relatively sparsely populated, and also areas that have historically specialized in one industry or another. As those industries wax and wane, so too do the fortunes of many who live in those areas. This is an example of that, where there was a lot of manufacturing (primarily cars) in this area, and as those jobs have moved the populace is…

Yes, the failure is not that a town decayed post-industrialization, it's that the federal government doesn't believe in supporting the people who are left behind after these busts. No re-training funds, no relocation support, housing placement, etc.

> No re-training funds

Not exactly truthful. Most "free trade" recent agreements (past ~30 years or so) come with some sort of TAA support [1][2].

Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things? These are implied powers which the states have responsibility for. The Constitution does not reserve any of these for the federal government.

You can't ignore human ego, denial, and the power of convention. All one-industry towns wane when their one industry either falls or moves. People complain, panic, and some even try to move to find better luck elsewhere.

Ultimately, the largest anchor tends to be housing/property, which in the US tends to be paid for by long term debt. When a town loses its economic engine, demand to move there drops to near zero and the housing values fall underwater at the same time when people need to leave. I fail to see why the federal government should be on the hook for something like this. It would be subsidizing failure in a large way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance

[2] https://www.doleta.gov/programs/factsht/nafta.cfm

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#289

Post by babygoat »

ZoeZoeBee wrote: post #234
babygoat wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where on earth did you get that idea?

Voting Records. Do you believe something else?

Yeah, I guess since you think progressive thought is the same as voting for Democrats, try Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Hawaii, Minnesota, Boston, New York... Neat how you ignored all of the places that people love.

Re: Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of emergency declared

#290

Post by dragonwriter »

thephyber wrote: post #288
cylinder wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the failure is not that a town decayed post-industrialization, it's that the federal government doesn't believe in supporting the people who are left behind after these busts. No re-training funds, no relocation support, housing placement, etc.

> No re-training funds Not exactly truthful. Most "free trade" recent agreements (past ~30 years or so) come with some sort of TAA support [1][2]. Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things? These are implied powers which the states have responsibility for. The Constitution does not reserve any of these for the federal government. You can't ignore human ego, denial, and the power of conventi…

> Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things?

Because their cost imposed by federal internal and external policies adopted under the Congress' Commerce Clause powers (including when they are caused by decisions not to exercise Commerce Clause powers -- a decision not to act within granted power is itself an use of the power), and because while certain cities may the poster children for the problem, quite often when regional industries are effect, its not just one city in one state, but a whole state (or several) that suffer substantial net negative effects.

The commercial policy that Congress pursues which results in these harms is usually done on the premise that it is ultimately the best on balance for the nation as a whole, and that the harms some areas experience are more the compensated by the benefits experienced elsewhere in the country. Which may be true, on balance, but if it is, then taxing those that benefit to provide support to those that are harmed should be able to remediate the damage to those harmed while still leaving those who benefit ahead.

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