Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

home-assistant.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 303 posts

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#141

Post by cbsmith »

crystalmeph wrote: post #113
cbsmith wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair view of the analysis. If the real value was in the hub, and these other lights were getting a free ride on it, then the opportunity would be to charge more for the hub. What is far more likely to be the case is that the support costs around problems caused by random third party components messing with the Zigbee network were exceeding the value of providing that support, particularly whe…

That's basically saying that you can't expect anyone to profitably provide support for a device that anchors an "open" system. There will always be bad actors who screw up the network for everyone else (especially when you're talking about a wireless network), and "civilian" (meaning non-tech-savvy) customers will usually call the network hub manufacturer for support, because that is where they will see the problem,…

No, that's not what I'm saying.

There will always be bad actors. Often you design a system to handle them in ways that minimize support costs.

Consider the case of 802.11 or USB or ZigBee. In general, most of the value of providing a device that works with any of those is a function of how well it works with any other device. The support costs are also a function of how well the device interoperates with other devices.

That pretty much kills the value of making a device that only works with a manufacturers own devices, and provides strong incentives to work with as many as possible as well as possible.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#142

Post by dperfect »

marcosdumay wrote: post #126
dperfect wrote: post #105

This problem isn't unique to Philips Hue, and I'm not sure Philips is necessarily a bad actor here. They are, after all, just acting in their best interest (and contrary to common belief, companies are self-interested; the customer's interests are important only so much as they serve the company's interests - for better or for worse). Perhaps the problem is more related to the ZigBee standard, or more specifically, w…

> and contrary to common belief, companies are self-interested; the customer's interests are important only so much as they serve the company's interests - for better or for worse The idea used to be that companies served the consumer interest, and then billed some money in exchange. When was it that companies become some self sustaining beings, with their own interest to be served? (Yeah, surely when they discovered…

That was true at least as far back as the 1790's when James Wilson described a corporation as "a person in a political capacity created by the law, to endure in perpetual succession."

To "endure in perpetual succession," companies by definition must operate under a fundamental premise of self-interest.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#143

Post by mmanfrin »

kamaal wrote: post #94
roymurdock wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boss: We introduced Hue back in 2012 w/ a plan to lose money the first 3 years developing the hub, subsidizing partners, and getting our product out in the market. Tell me we're seeing a positive ROI now. Hue PM: Hue is profitable, but only marginally so. Our strategy of making up the initial investment on $60 per bulb hardware is being undermined by cheap 3rd party lighting fixtures. Plus we're incurring costs respo…

Fine strategy until the universal controller app arrives. After that, the same Boss would hope they should allowed their app to control third party bulbs, since that way at least they would have a brand presence, and by that way that would have allowed them to sell their bulbs better than others.

This is why I am betting on Amazon for the long win; the Echo is continually expanding to be able to control any device that connects to the internet, and Amazon isn't trying to push their own brand of bulbs (yet). They seem to be building themselves as the point of contact for humans to set off [whatever automated thing some other company sells].

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#144

Post by wlesieutre »

mbesto wrote: post #86
roymurdock wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boss: We introduced Hue back in 2012 w/ a plan to lose money the first 3 years developing the hub, subsidizing partners, and getting our product out in the market. Tell me we're seeing a positive ROI now. Hue PM: Hue is profitable, but only marginally so. Our strategy of making up the initial investment on $60 per bulb hardware is being undermined by cheap 3rd party lighting fixtures. Plus we're incurring costs respo…

This is 100% spot on. I have been in meetings just like this in a past life.

While this may happen in other instances, Zigbee Light Link products like these are 100% targeted at consumer markets. If commercial/industrial applications are doing a ZigBee controlled building, they're doing it with ZigBee Building Automation. (alternately, EnOcean, Enlighted, etc. which also target commercial markets with wireless lighting controls)

Light Link - "Smart, easy-to-use lighting control designed for consumers." http://www.zigbee.org/zigbee-for-developers/applicationstand...

Building Automation - "Innovative, efficient and money-saving workplaces." http://www.zigbee.org/zigbee-for-developers/applicationstand...

It's conceivable that they could carry the Hue brand into other markets, but the existing Hue Bridge that just lost compatibility is definitely not that product.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#145

Post by ocdtrekkie »

detaro wrote: post #136
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It's pretty easy to swap out a light switch when you move in, and put it back when you move out, without causing any real 'damage' to the unit.

All electrical work in the unit has to be done by someone legally qualified to do so (I'm not) and it is not worth getting a bill for a "proper" electrician to fix it for. Also only work for one lamp per room (that already has a light switch) and doesn't do any fancy new color-control features. Everything else needs additional modules and wireless controls anyways, so why do it differently for this one case? Exchangi…

I kinda wanna know how many people actually get asked to show proof the electrical work of shutting off the power, unscrewing wires from a light switch, and screwing them back onto a new light switch, was done by a licensed professional. I get you probably don't want someone running new wiring around a place who doesn't know what they're doing, but changing out light switches isn't substantially more difficult than changing a light bulb.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#146

Post by albertoleal »

rizwank wrote: post #98
soperj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that deters me from ever writing something for iOS is that you have to own a Mac to do it.

I do not believe this is true now given all the third party frameworks available.

Which frameworks?

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#147

Post by dmritard96 »

We are building some related home control products and have forgone radio level integrations instead favoring integrating with anyone over http, providing an open api, and shortly after launch an sdk. Radio integrations in theory are fine but in practice it's a matter of picking sides, allowing third party devices to dictate your access to the Internet and interop, for a few features, offline (local http should be an option with any hub, nest etc but isnt) and lower latency operation as probably the biggest features. Not controlling your own products' access to the Internet is a scary proposition not to mention range/interference issues with 2.4ghz if you don't have aa critical mass. Building IoTs right now is as much an alignment excercise as a technical one and while it's a bummer that they have chosen to remove/prevent compatibility, consumers aren't really choosing subscription models for devices and cloud backed services hence the economics of customer acquisition, support, margins etc aren't realities that can be wished away.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#148

Post by chkuendig »

enjo wrote: post #137
chkuendig wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand you could argue that while the pc revolution fueled on DOS licensing and IBM compatible BIOS was a a massive leap for the economy overall, it wasnt the best move for IBM in either the short nor the long term. Now they do the no-scales business of services and consulting...

$13.5 Billion in yearly revenue is apparently low scale these days.

to clarify: I meant economies of scale. In services they are much much lover then in software licensing (example: microsoft in the 80ties and 90ies) or integrated products (example: apple now)

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#149

Post by switchbak »

usaphp wrote: post #78
tdkl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll never understand why companies make such customer hostile decisions. Because they can. John Doe will think "oh, I just need to shell out some money to get it working again", or "oh, the system needed an upgrade anyway". The mobile bonanza (well, that one company who gets majority of revenue from hardware) in last couple of years perverted the word "upgrade" from "a software upgrade, which adds new features and…

> that one company who gets majority of revenue from hardware I hope you are not referring to Apple, because compared to other companies , iPhones and iPads are the one who can run current software on older devices with almost no issues. Samsung and other android manufacturers on the other hand have not supported older devices at all until recently (and even now not as good as Apple does). My first gen iPad still run…

I have a first-gen iPad, and it most certainly does not run "perfectly fine". Most apps aren't released for those old versions, some even seem to get removed automatically.

I think the Android world is worse, mind you - but old iOS devices are still left to rot. My 2.5 year old Google TV box being abandoned by Google (can't even log into the app store) was infuriating.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#150

Post by TeMPOraL »

bsder wrote: post #140
kamaal wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine strategy until the universal controller app arrives. After that, the same Boss would hope they should allowed their app to control third party bulbs, since that way at least they would have a brand presence, and by that way that would have allowed them to sell their bulbs better than others.

Boss will be promoted by then because profit went up 150% for two quarters.

It's funny how in today's corporations it is in manager's best interest to make decisions that are profitable short-term but bad for the company long-term - the manager will be there for a reward, but long gone by the time consequences come.
Post reply on HN