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Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

positech.co.uk

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Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#181
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you mistook my comment for support of the current drug control system in the United States, when I really said nothing of the sort. The purpose of a drug policy is (ostensibly) and has always been to reduce consumption rates -- look at any of the public support / speeches since the policies were begun (going back to Temperance / Prohibition). That that purpose is ill served by the current effective policy h…

> you saying there's no potential at which a drug should be illegal? You can also buy a knife and stab yourself. You can choose to do harm to yourself in numerous different ways. Some of those ways include manipulating your own mind. You can also engage in other self-destructive behaviors that won't directly kill you, but will likely ruin your life to some degree. For instance, spending sixteen hours a day on Interne…

>> you saying there's no potential at which a drug should be illegal?

> You can also buy a knife and stab yourself. You can choose to do harm to yourself in numerous different ways. Some of those ways include manipulating your own mind. You can also engage in other self-destructive behaviors that won't directly kill you, but will likely ruin your life to some degree.

The difference if we're using metaphors is that knives aren't addictive in the same way that some drugs are. I have no problem with people altering their mind using whatever substance they choose -- if it's below a certain addictiveness threshold. With threshold arguable as to what point is socially dangerous enough to merit special treatment.

>> Imo, there's a point where socially we can absolutely say, "No, that thing is too dangerous to let you have without precautions."

> "And if you don't agree with that, then we'll throw you in jail". Doesn't sound as good when you complete the thought, does it?

Yes, it still sounds pretty good compared to the alternative. Obviously, I'd prefer not to use incarceration as a penalty, as I think we (the US) have shown that as currently practiced it's a terribly ineffective way to promote social good.

But generally? If you feel that there are certain things that should be agreed and enforced via laws (I do), then there are going to be consequences to breaking those laws. And those consequences are going to be unpleasant.

I don't like incarceration or support it as a policy, but banned addictive substances -> illegal suppliers. I don't know of a magic bullet to solve that without a threat. :\

>> if addictive drugs were legal and fully unregulated, who do you think the majority of the profits would go to?

> Anyone capable of growing or synthesizing them. They're generics by definition. (Not that businesses wouldn't come up with "designer" versions, too.)

> Do you see major drug companies flocking to states that have legalized pot?

Really? :p Just like freely-growable tobacco profits don't accumulate with large corporations?

And no, I don't see major drug companies flocking to states that have legalized a substance that is still criminalized at the national level.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#182
I think the problem is not addiction itself. People are addictive to all kinds of things all the time, but most times it doesn't hurt people much. For example, being addicted to watching TV, maybe cause people to gain some extra pounds and waste their time, but in the end, it doesn't hurt much.

But sometimes it does hurt, like gambling and drug abuse. The reason those things hurt is not just because they're addictive, but also that people are making money depending on how addictive you are. The money-making incentivizes people to manipulate consumer's behavior. Drug does this by the ways of bio-chemistry, gambling does this by the ways of psychology. In this way, addictive social games like Game of War is very similar to gambling.

The problem with this kind of manipulation is that, like gambling, those addictive social games are selling people things that don't exist, don't have any actual value, and don't contribute to support a country's economy(it actually does the opposite). People won't want those things have they not been manipulated. Just psychological manipulation itself is not wrong. Even hard-working and honest companies need some kind of ways of spreading the word, and getting consumers to be in their favor in order to sell their products. It's not wrong if the product itself has some kind of actual value to the costumer.

But in the case of addictive social games, if we look at it in a perfectly neutral way, the only value of the virtual items and perks they sell to the consumer is in the context of the in-game psychological manipulation context. Does a row of numbers in a MySQL database that doesn't mean anything elsewhere really worth $20 dollars? Obviously not. Does watching a picture of a sword or armor or animation of the building of a building really worth that $20 dollars? Highly doubtful. But that's what those addictive social games actually sells. They conditioned customers to pay for something they don't need even when the actual gameplay has become repetitive and boring long times ago.

Let's think back and check: it sells people things of no actual value; it manipulates people to buy things of no actual value; its money-making solely depends on the manipulation. It sounds a whole lot like a fraud to me. If it's not illegal, I can't think of why frauds should be. I'm I missing something?

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#183
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both the original article's and your points are valid. Especially when you start to see games/virtual items as a "thing" (which probably started with UO/WoW) as opposed to a "fake thing". That said, as a thought experiment, I disagree with the fact that government and regulation have no place in the way a society consumes things like this. If you accept that our knowledge of psychology, biochemistry, and neur…

>b) We overturn the majority of our current social psychology knowledge and realize that yes, people actually do have absolute free will Err... All current research suggests that you have almost no free will and are little more than a complex set of reactions to external stimulus.

Hence his comment. He's replying to people who claim all/most transactions in capitalism are willful actions by free, rational actors.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#184
I think the problem is not addiction itself. People are addictive to all kinds of things all the time, but most times it doesn't hurt people much. For example, being addicted to watching TV, maybe cause people to gain some extra pounds and waste their time, but in the end, it doesn't hurt much.

But sometimes it does hurt, like gambling and drug abuse. The reason those things hurt is not just because they're addictive, but also that people are making money depending on how addictive you are. The money-making incentivizes people to manipulate consumer's behavior. Drug does this by the ways of bio-chemistry, gambling does this by the ways of psychology. In this way, addictive social games like Game of War is very similar to gambling.

The problem with this kind of manipulation is that, like gambling, those addictive social games are selling people things that don't exist, don't have any actual value, and don't contribute to support a country's economy(it actually does the opposite). People won't want those things have they not been manipulated. Just psychological manipulation itself is not wrong. Even hard-working and honest companies need some kind of ways of spreading the word, and getting consumers to be in their favor in order to sell their products. It's not wrong if the product itself has some kind of actual value to the costumer.

But in the case of addictive social games, if we look at it in a perfectly neutral way, the only value of the virtual items and perks they sell to the consumer is in the context of the in-game psychological manipulation context. Does a row of numbers in a MySQL database that doesn't mean anything elsewhere really worth $20 dollars? Obviously not. Does watching a picture of a sword or armor or animation of the building of a building really worth that $20 dollars? Highly doubtful. But that's what those addictive social games actually sells. They conditioned customers to pay for something they don't need even when the actual gameplay has become repetitive and boring long times ago.

Let's think back and check: it sells people things of no actual value; it manipulates people to buy things of no actual value; its money-making solely depends on the manipulation. It sounds a whole lot like a fraud to me. If it's not illegal, I can't think of why frauds should be. I'm I missing something?

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#185
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a whole industry which explicit purpose is figuring out the best way to abuse bugs in human psychology to part them with their money, I think some reaction is warranted. The video game industry did not invent slimy salesmen. Learning to say "no" to salesmen has been a basic life skill for all of human history. Millions of people manage to do it every day. It's one of the things that parents drill into their…

You can apply all your same arguments to gambling, but society disagrees -- gambling is regulated.

Totally irrelevant. This is the logical fallacy argumentum ad populum (i.e. appeal to the majority). We settle our differences democratically, but the outcome could very well be the worse option.

And, by the way, there's plenty of places where gambling is legal, including parts of the US.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#186
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe that the property owner may do whatever they wish within their property. Then you don't really support property rights. I mean, certainly, property owners must be within the bounds of the common and civil law framework of their jurisdiction. Limiting how property is internally arranged is a wholly different matter, it's a direct veto on how someone schedules their production structure for no reason b…

> Then you don't really support property rights. Or we simply disagree what rights and liabilities the property owner should have in the context, which I define as business property. I see no problem with this as there are many countries with extensive liabilities and regulations when it comes to property and business practices one is allowed to conduct. > By protecting customers from "themselves" and thus also prote…

Actually my opposition to regulation isn't an ideological default. It's borne out of my analysis weighing endogenous regulation (contracts signed by actors with judicial assistance to enforce them) against exogenous regulations, like that of a collective body of action, i.e. government. There's been a lot written on this subject.

(To answer your statement, if there is a stalemate such that both government failure and market failure are inevitable, I would prefer the latter, for the simple reason that it entails less layers of indirection and that it doesn't impose any upper bound on heterogeneous consumer preferences.)

That said, I do have some reading recommendations.

James M. Buchanan was an eminent economist and political theoretician. I'd recommend his classic The Calculus of Consent co-written with Gordon Tullock, supplemented with his own The Limits of Liberty and Costs and Choice.

William A. Niskanen wrote Bureaucracy and Representative Government presenting a budget-maximizing theory of government akin to a utility-maximizing theory of an economic actor. Both have limitations, but it's worth reading.

Don Lavoie wrote great primers such as Rivalry and Central Planning and National Economic Planning: What Is Left? which equally apply to a mixed economy.

R.H. Coase formulated the Coase theorem in his paper "The Problem of Social Cost," demonstrating how private property rights plus low transaction costs lead to endogenous self-regulatory actions.

Oliver E. Williamson wrote a technical work on transaction cost economics entitled The Mechanisms of Governance. Another technical writer was Lester G. Telser, particularly his work on the "core theory" related to cooperation, coordination and collusion.

Essays and papers by Armen A. Alchian, Harold Demsetz and Yale Brozen are also worth examining.

For a bare introduction, see Government Failure: A Primer in Public Choice, or a recent paper using behavioral theory to analyze public policy [1].

[1] http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2015/...

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's tons of laws to protect people from false advertising, fraud, and such. But if, armed with the facts and all of these protections, someone still spends their money unwisely, that's no longer the government's problem. Laws hadn't caught up with progress in game industry yet. It's high time for it though. I understand the reluctance to regulate things, but when we have a whole industry which explicit purpose…

> we have a whole industry which explicit purpose is figuring out the best way to abuse bugs in human psychology to part them with their money, I think some reaction is warranted. The video game industry did not invent slimy salesmen. Learning to say "no" to salesmen has been a basic life skill for all of human history. Millions of people manage to do it every day. It's one of the things that parents drill into their…

This isn't about simple ads. This is about serious manipulation. Would it be okay for a car salesman to send people to follow you around find out where you hang out, then have a one of them casually start up a conversation at some restaurant or bar, befriend you, and then a few days later, after you've became friends, subtly suggest they really like the same type of car the sales person has to sell?

Maybe you're okay with that but it's that kind of behavior the OP is against. Not just simple sales tactics to say no to but full on manipulation.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that this comes up. Donald J. Boudreaux wrote an entry just earlier on the same topic in response to Akerlof and Shiller's recent book: http://cafehayek.com/2015/12/the-role-of-market-forces-in-pr... There's also a bit of a double standard about how advertising is perceived. Banner ads, editorials and similar are frowned upon. Yet it's quite likely you'll interpret someone promoting a work in the comments secti…

> Yet it's quite likely you'll interpret someone promoting a work in the comments section of a site you frequent as a friendly recommendation The difference is intent . People directly advertising in comments get downvoted, promoting something relevant as a friendly favour are upvoted, and people doing the former while pretending to do the latter are considered sleazy bastards and subject to being pruned from communi…

The difference is actually subjective gauging of intent. Particularly your latter case of the "sleazy bastards" is often an intrinsic gray area and of course in the best case indistinguishable from a mere recommendation without special interests.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#190
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your opinion there's nothing a gaming or marketing company can do that's legal now, but really shouldn't be? I'm also not buying that it's a slippery slope and banning, say, cross compiling profiles on customers from different, unrelated platforms would "take down the entirety of marketing and advertising as an industry". In capitalism, companies will do everything within the legal framework to make more money.…

> I'm also not buying that it's a slippery slope and banning, say, cross compiling profiles on customers from different, unrelated platforms would "take down the entirety of marketing and advertising as an industry". It's also not clear that destroying the entirety of marketing and advertising industries is an obviously bad idea if you take the long view on humanity. (It's also not an obviously good idea. It's worth…

How long a view are we talking about? On a time scale of decades, it sounds like a bad idea, and on a time scale of centuries I tend to distrust all forecasts. Care to present any argument in favor?
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