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Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

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Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#151

Post by vezzy-fnord »

zxcdw wrote: post #137
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not arguing for giving up the notion of personal responsibility, but But you are. When you get to micromanaging such trivialities, there's no limit what a planner's mentality will settle on next. A ban on restaurants that offer salty free lunches with every purchase of beer because they're relying on the customer to make up for it by ordering drinks. It is absolutely not fraud. A happy hour was advertised, and t…

> But you are. No, I am not. You're seeing binary where there is none. My point is not to abolish the notion of personal responsibility, but to acknowledge that there is more to human behavior and decision making than cold, rational free will. > When you get to micromanaging such trivialities, there's no limit what a planner's mentality will settle on next. This is a slippery slope argument. > It is absolutely not fr…

I do not believe that the property owner may do whatever they wish within their property.

Then you don't really support property rights. I mean, certainly, property owners must be within the bounds of the common and civil law framework of their jurisdiction. Limiting how property is internally arranged is a wholly different matter, it's a direct veto on how someone schedules their production structure for no reason but the failings of people who they have no stake in. By protecting customers from "themselves" and thus also protecting owners from customers, you are curtailing rights of both to engage in voluntary contract.

It is a mere implementation detail, not an end in itself.

Not free market economy. Market economy in general. It's not at all an "implementation detail," it arises quite organically out of interpersonal exchange.

hence I propose regulation

You know what I loathe?

Let's take everything you've said at face value.

You provide a case for perceived suboptimal behavior of markets, but then by proposing regulation you completely ignore the prospect of suboptimal government action! That is absolutely disingenuous. Your proposal exists outside of reality and assumes a hypothetical benevolent exogenous regulator that doesn't actually exist (as opposed to real states which are complex institutions).

You'd do yourself good by reading up on some public choice theory.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#152

Post by JoshTriplett »

ethbro wrote: post #134
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing like respecting individual rights by bringing the wrath of the criminal justice system on anyone who dares exercise their right to self-ownership by altering their state of consciousness. The purpose of a drug policy is not to reduce consumption rates. Consumption is not intrinsically bad. My use of the dangerous and potent drug known as theobromine (translation: I eat chocolate) is not itself the problem. A…

I believe you mistook my comment for support of the current drug control system in the United States, when I really said nothing of the sort. The purpose of a drug policy is (ostensibly) and has always been to reduce consumption rates -- look at any of the public support / speeches since the policies were begun (going back to Temperance / Prohibition). That that purpose is ill served by the current effective policy h…

> you saying there's no potential at which a drug should be illegal?

You can also buy a knife and stab yourself. You can choose to do harm to yourself in numerous different ways. Some of those ways include manipulating your own mind.

You can also engage in other self-destructive behaviors that won't directly kill you, but will likely ruin your life to some degree. For instance, spending sixteen hours a day on Internet forums to the exclusion of all else. Or eating 6000 calories a day. Or never exercising. Or spending money you don't have on things you don't need. Choosing to exercise willpower in several of those situations involves combating intentional psychological manipulation to convince you otherwise.

Your life could probably be better organized, more productive, longer, and possibly even more fun for you if someone else made your decisions for you. Want to let them? Do you think everyone should be forced to?

> , there's a point where socially we can absolutely say, "No, that thing is too dangerous to let you have without precautions."

"And if you don't agree with that, then we'll throw you in jail". Doesn't sound as good when you complete the thought, does it?

If you harm others, or even risk harm to others, then absolutely. For instance, other people didn't agree to sharing a road with someone with impaired senses and reaction times.

If you want to go teach a course on how to develop and exercise willpower, and how it's one of the single biggest controllable factors that helps determine your success in life, by all means do so. I'm not being sarcastic; that would genuinely be wildly useful and a major improvement to society.

> if addictive drugs were legal and fully unregulated, who do you think the majority of the profits would go to?

Anyone capable of growing or synthesizing them. They're generics by definition. (Not that businesses wouldn't come up with "designer" versions, too.)

Do you see major drug companies flocking to states that have legalized pot?

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#153

Post by ino »

triangleman wrote: post #121
kozukumi wrote: post #26

Hmm this is a tough one. Firstly I should make it clear that my wife works in the games industry. She works on PC, Console and Mobile titles. She has mentioned several times how there is a lot of pressure put on developers and publishers to "catch the whales". They employ psychologists and gambling specialists to make games, mostly mobile but it is also creeping into PC and Console, super addictive. Personally I am o…

The original article is bad. It can be summed up in a key phrase the author used 3 times: Governments need to "save us from ourselves". I'm sorry but that's not the role of government. "Protect us from each other" as well as "provide us necessary public services" is closer to the actual design of government. I wish that instead of running around screaming "think of the children", the author actually respected his aud…

Regarding "think of the children", there's a reason casinos have minimum age requirements. Gambling is an addiction and many of these games exploit the same principle that makes us addicted. At an early age it can mess you up for good.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#154

Post by TeMPOraL »

adrtessier wrote: post #81
peterashford wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. When HD advertises to you, you buy a bike and you're done. And you have an actual, existent bike. And you could sell it later should you feel like you made a mistake. With whales, they spend and spend and spend - way more than a Harley costs them. And what do they end up with? Sweet FA.

I don't think that is his point; that's not what Harley does, at all. H-D markets themselves as a "lifestyle brand". You don't just buy a motorcycle and you're done. You are aggressively marketed toward for a bunch of different pieces of clothing, spare parts, co-branded partnerships with automobile companies, et cetera, ad nauseum. You are effectively buying into a subculture. Furthermore, Harley-Davidson has been k…

One difference I see is that H-D subculture is not ephemeral. If H-D decided to wrap up their business and disappear tomorrow, the bikes will still be there. The clothes will still be there. The brand, the culture created around it over the years, will still exist. Contrast with the "value" whales purchase for their games that could cease to exist the moment the game company decides to shut down their servers.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#155

Post by JoshTriplett »

purpled_haze wrote: post #114
adrtessier wrote: post #12

> "We need to reign this stuff in. Its not just psychological warfare, but warfare where you, the customer, are woefully outgunned, and losing. Some people are losing catastrophically." I strongly disagree with this statement. I am very aware of the psychology behind marketing and advertising, and anyone with half an interest in it has probably read Vance Packard's The Hidden Persuaders , which was released, oh, 58 y…

> how would one even decide where the line between manipulative consumption and social signaling is? The mean amount of money spent and time played per week per user would be a good place to start. If any user is spending more than $40 USD/week on a game or more than 20 hours/week playing a game, it's a problem.

> If any user is spending more than $40 USD/week on a game or more than 20 hours/week playing a game, it's a problem.

A small handful of surprisingly successful people spend a significant amount on games, record themselves playing them for 40+ hours a week, and make money getting others to watch. Problem?

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#156

Post by TeMPOraL »

mikeash wrote: post #126
Natsu wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and if the game closes up for whatever reason (no longer making money, whatever), all of your investment into it can quickly vanish into literally nothing.

If you crash your uninsured Harley it's no different.

That's your own fault. The difference I see is that H-D stuff's value isn't entirely dependent on the company itself; they don't control it past the point of sale. They can't change their mind and unmake your bike, or your biker jacket, or your local H-D club.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#157

Post by JoshTriplett »

zouhair wrote: post #102
nostromo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at someone who spent $30k on ships in Star Citizen. http://www.pcgamer.com/meet-a-fan-who-has-spent-30000-on-sta... He seems like a reasonable person to me. He's not in financial ruin. He doesn't seem to regret his purchase. He's just putting money into his hobby, the same way a different 40 year old would buy an "unproductive" boat or an "unproductive" Rolex.

When you buy a boat or a Rolex, you own a boat or a Rolex. Now you can buy all Star Citizen's ship you will own nothing, if tomorrow they decide to close their servers you are pretty much screwed.

When you buy a ticket to a movie, a concert, or a theme park, after you're done, you have "nothing" by the argument you're making. Want to ban movies, concerts, and theme parks?

People get value from things that aren't tangible. Many of the most valuable things aren't tangible.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#158

Post by bduerst »

zouhair wrote: post #100
adrtessier wrote: post #12

> "We need to reign this stuff in. Its not just psychological warfare, but warfare where you, the customer, are woefully outgunned, and losing. Some people are losing catastrophically." I strongly disagree with this statement. I am very aware of the psychology behind marketing and advertising, and anyone with half an interest in it has probably read Vance Packard's The Hidden Persuaders , which was released, oh, 58 y…

Why the death of advertising could be a bad thing? Its usefulness is way overrated when it comes to the common good.

Ads are inefficient, but are still useful as a information distribution method across inefficient markets. The perfect ad will lead to a mutually-beneficial transaction between a buyer and a seller.

There is also a cognitive bias with ads, where people on attribute negative ad experiences to advertising, never the good ones (except in super bowls or other outliers).

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#159

Post by gregimba »

WalterBright wrote: post #109
zouhair wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you buy a boat or a Rolex, you own a boat or a Rolex. Now you can buy all Star Citizen's ship you will own nothing, if tomorrow they decide to close their servers you are pretty much screwed.

Owning a boat can be a real drag, though, once the novelty wears off.

Literally a drag...

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#160

Post by wildmusings »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #146
wildmusings wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put a slight spin on the aphorism: there will always be someone to part a fool from his money. There's tons of laws to protect people from false advertising, fraud, and such. But if, armed with the facts and all of these protections, someone still spends their money unwisely, that's no longer the government's problem. To use another aphorism: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

> There's tons of laws to protect people from false advertising, fraud, and such. But if, armed with the facts and all of these protections, someone still spends their money unwisely, that's no longer the government's problem. Laws hadn't caught up with progress in game industry yet. It's high time for it though. I understand the reluctance to regulate things, but when we have a whole industry which explicit purpose…

> we have a whole industry which explicit purpose is figuring out the best way to abuse bugs in human psychology to part them with their money, I think some reaction is warranted.

The video game industry did not invent slimy salesmen. Learning to say "no" to salesmen has been a basic life skill for all of human history. Millions of people manage to do it every day. It's one of the things that parents drill into their kids heads as they grow up.

We're talking about video games, frivolous entertainment. If you spend all of next month's rent on in-app purchases, you've thoroughly earned the consequences of your actions. And those consequences will serve as a potent lesson.

And the law has already gotten involved with recent developments in the game industry. The FTC and EU have already forced Apple and Google to ensure that children cannot make purchases without parental permission. With that in place, it's now up to the parents to say "no" to their children. Another basic life skill, with consequences for those who ignore it.

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