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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I strongly disagree with this. I see no reason to believe civility and meaningful communication are directly correlated. Quite the contrary. Forcing others to maintain a tone you find pleasant (poorly defined variable) strips an entire sideband from a conversation. What's up with the insistence that everyone be warm and fuzzy at all times anyway?

It's the rules of HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html if you want an awful toxic place, go to any other forum on the Internet with as many readers. There you can find knee-jerk, shallow, abusive arguments from people who, actually, don't even mean it and often have nothing to say. The reason you enjoy HN is because it has rules against this kind of discourse. jsprogrammer's reply to you is a great ex…

It's a mistake on your part to speak to what I do or don't enjoy about Hacker News or to even assume I take any kind of pleasure in the community here. That said, the comments in question, while clearly dismissive of another poster's assertions, is hardly a profanity-laden screed. It's substantially better constructed and contains more relevant information than all of the posts in response to it put together. Are you saying the odd fuck here and there in some way invalidates the content of the post, and if so through what mechanism?

Edit: typo.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#282

I find that the most anti-intellectualism, cheap-shot emotional abuse, and stereotyping on the Internet is motivated by moral sentiments through online pseudo "activists" who are really working out their anger and self-esteem issues under the supposed imprimatur of one cause or another. This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. Att…

You call out activists, but this strategy of hate and othering is mostly used by esteblished political groups and religions. They just don't have to be as aggressively vocal about it, because they already yield enough power and influence to use a more moderate tone of voice. But what they actually do is equally hateful and vitriolic.

You call out activists

False. I call out a specific subset of activists, and provide functional, factual/behavior-based criteria for identifying the subset. Furthermore, the criteria are independent from any particular political position or ideology.

this strategy of hate and othering is mostly used by esteblished political groups and religions.

Such "strategies of hate and othering" lead to bad and problematic behavior. The psychology involved has been foundational in the all the greatest crimes against humanity in history. The embrace of hate and othering by a group in its ideology and internally accepted conduct lead to cognitive distortions that make problematic behaviors far more likely. It doesn't matter the cause such things are done for. It's the psychology and behavior itself which are foundational problems.

So, you're saying that everyone does the same things, but activists have to do it louder? I'm sorry, but the embrace of hate is a problem, no matter what cause it's supposedly done "for" and no matter what name it goes under. That's a truth of human history and the human condition that MLK and Gandhi knew well, and which large swathes of online "activism" vocally denies and even argues against it applying to them.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While moral codes are often a huge part of religions they are also a huge part of other groups of society, such as animal rights groups, labour unions and even criminal organisations. Very true indeed, but I think that religion still deserves particular attention because it's the most prominent institution that promotes believing claims without evidence as a virtue, in particular in the area of morality, which pave…

> claims without evidence I think there is plenty of evidence. I don't feel like I'd change your mind in an Internet comment by laying out particulars, but I just wanted to note that plenty of people of faith don't ascribe to the idea of blind faith. > what is moral is a scientific question What evidence do you have to support this statement? I can see how you could start with that assumption and find ways to justify…

> I think there is plenty of evidence.

I am speaking of observation, not revelation.

> I just wanted to note that plenty of people of faith don't ascribe to the idea of blind faith.

People don't say "it's faith" when they can find any other reason why they consider something to be true, "it's faith" is the fallback when they don't have any other reason. Whether they then find some reason for why "it's faith" is a good reason is secondary to that simple observation. You just don't hear "it's raining outside!" - "how do you know?" - "it's faith!", but you do hear "god exists!" - "how do you know?" - "it's faith!" or "homosexuality is sin!" - "how do you know?" - "it's faith!".

> What evidence do you have to support this statement?

Well, what evidence do you have that the question whether falling from a tall building increases your well-being is a scientific one (I assume you think that it is?)?

That question is hard to answer because it's difficult to tell what it is that you actually want to know, but the answers to those two questions should be similar.

> I can see how you could start with that assumption and find ways to justify it, but I don't see how you can conclusively prove the initial premise.

I think the more interesting question is: Do you disagree and if so, why?

Whether I can prove that premise depends on which assumptions/axioms you accept. With some assumptions, I can prove it, with others, I can't. But if you chose axioms under which I can't prove it, I can instead disprove lots of things you consider to be true, which might make you rethink your axioms.

> My point is that it seems like you have a moral code that states that all things can be proven within the bounds of science and what is observable by humans, no?

Nope, I don't.

However, in that statement I do recognize a common misunderstanding of methodological naturalism (which is basically the defining philosophy of science), so let me try and explain:

Science is the idea of developing a model of the world that mirrors reality as best as currently possible by constantly testing the model against reality and throwing out/changing anything where tests give a different result than the model would suggest, and gradually accepting parts of the model as tentatively reliable the more tries to produce contradictions in tests have failed (that is to say: the more tries to produce a different result than the model suggests do result in what the model suggests nonetheless). What it in particular is not is a set of facts (any science "fact" is open to demonstration that it's actually not so and will be thrown out if that happens, though that doesn't normally happen for well-tested parts of the model), and it's also not a dogma: There is nothing that science disallows from being tested, and no method that is disallowed to perform the testing, as long as it can be shown that it can be expected to fail if the hypothesis to be tested is wrong in some aspect. It's a perfectly fine scientific hypothesis that prayer improves health outcomes after operations, and it's perfectly reasonable to then test this hypothesis in an experiment that involves praying for people and then checking whether any effect on health outcomes can be observed. Actually, that particular hypothesis has been suggested, and has been tested--and the test didn't show anything that would support the hypothesis, which is why it's not part of the scientific model of the world, but the point is that there is no dogma in science that would have prevented this hypothesis from becoming a well-regarded scientific theory, had it been demonstrated to work, in which case prayer now presumably would be a standard part of medical procedures.

So, in that sense, science doesn't actually subscribe to a distinction between the "natural" and the "supernatural": If there is any claimed observable effect, science is willing to take a look at whether the claimed observable effect can indeed be observed, and if it can, you have a scientific theory, whether it's masses moving in gravitational fields, germs causing diseases, or prayer healing the ill.

However, it is important to note that science does not proclaim that if you can't observe something, it therefore isn't. Claiming that something does not exist is just as much a scientific claim as claiming that it does, and so, if you claim non-existence, you have to perform tests to show that that claim is true just as when you wanted to show existence. As long as you haven't demonstrated some claim to either be true or to be false, you simply don't know whether it is true, and thus don't get to claim either way. Note that this is not to be confused with a claim that something won't ever be known (which again would be a claim that needs to be demonstrated)--what is unknown might well become known at a later point, but as long as it's unknown, it is unknown, and thus has to be treated just as every other claim of which the truth is unknown.

So, no, I don't claim that everything can be proven within the bounds of science and observation, but that if (and as long as) scientific methodology (which would ultimately mean some form of observation) does not provide any evidence, it is unreasonable to believe a claim. There might well be claims that are true that cannot (yet) be demonstrated to be either true or false. But as long as there is no evidence either way, I can't distinguish the ones that are true from the ones that are false, so I withhold belief on all of them.

All of that has little to do with morals. Morals, however, can be figured out using that same methodology. Sensible morals are all about consequences that one person's actions have on other people, and those consequences can be observed.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#284
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While moral codes are often a huge part of religions they are also a huge part of other groups of society, such as animal rights groups, labour unions and even criminal organisations. Very true indeed, but I think that religion still deserves particular attention because it's the most prominent institution that promotes believing claims without evidence as a virtue, in particular in the area of morality, which pave…

>what is moral is a scientific question I'd argue that this not the case, that morality is a philosophical question. In some cases one must draw on scientific knowledge to make moral judgments, but that's as far as it goes. We often overestimate the roll of science and underestimate the roll of philosophy. Most religious philosophies are obvious, while secular ones are over looked and just assumed correct by those wh…

> I'd argue that this not the case, that morality is a philosophical question.

It's as much a philosophical question as health is a philosophical question. Yes, in some sense, it is, but much less so than people generally think.

(It is also true that almost everything about life can be analyzed philosophically in far more detail than most people think, but then again, you don't really need much philosophical sophistication to figure out that not coughing your lungs out is preferable to coughing your lungs out, and analogously that not killing homosexuals is preferable to killing homosexuals--once we have that sorted out, sure, bring on your philosophy.)

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you talk about "logical discourse" you are merely saying that if you disagree with someone, they are being illogical. When you talk about "a respect for facts" you are merely saying that if you disagree with someone, they are being disingenuous about their observations. When you talk about "mental patterns of hate", which is a real mouthful for "hateful behavior", what you are saying is that if someone claims gr…

Well, I think it's a logical consequence of how morality works. It's basically a matter of definition: Your moral values are as I gathered "logical discourse", a "respect for facts" and an avoidance of "mental patterns of hate". Therefore if you are making a moral judgment about people, you are going to be judging them based on these and probably other values. But it's an essentially syntactic substitution of terms w…

So you are making a distinction that I am not. If you label something as "mental patterns of hate" and rejecting it on those grounds, you are, by definition making a moral judgment against it.

Excuse me, but have you read any history at all? The psychology of othering and its role in the justification of human evils is long and sordid.

What you consider hateful, I may not consider hateful

This is your word game of double standards. The hateful mindset in human brains is a tangible, measurable thing. There is no debate about this. Your cop-out is nothing more than a common-sense defying ideological re-labelling.

I have given you a concrete working example to demonstrate my moral logic.

I also note that you have not given me quotes to back your 3 unjustified assertions (attempt to put words in my mouth) which I called out. This kind of cognitive distortion resulting in a lack of intellectual dishonesty is something that I have observed in association with hateivism, and is simultaneously a symptom and pernicious effect.

I really don't want people unmotivated by anger to be activists.

Read carefully much? In a preceding comment, I make a point of saying it's ok for people to be motivated by anger in activism. The problem is when it becomes the guiding force.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#286
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop posting inflammatory ideological rants to Hacker News. Please also stop posting personal attacks, which this comment crosses into and which you've done before. Those are not allowed here.

I agree, there are parts of the comment that get personal. I disagree with the "ideological rant" part. Yes, Western military action in the Middle East is a classic flamewar topic, but for an article about violence that the perpetrators think is the moral thing to do, it's very much on-topic. Also, nobody else seems to be talking about the Overton window with regard to "extremes". Ideally, everyone would steer clear…

(I see "it would seem that my writings have touched a nerve" as provocation.)

Well, for one thing, are you asserting that it's not self-evident that he was incensed? It's pretty evident that he is. If the gentleman is indeed in a state of cognitive distortion driven by hate and groupthink, it could be useful to point it out to him. Getting him to at least the point where he acknowledges his hate, then has to justify having that hate is a step in the right direction.

Also, pointing such out for 3rd party readers may be beneficial for related reasons. He has at least admitted openly that he is in a state of anger and is in the process of justifying why he is right to be ruled by this mindstate.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#287
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what is moral is a scientific question I'd argue that this not the case, that morality is a philosophical question. In some cases one must draw on scientific knowledge to make moral judgments, but that's as far as it goes. We often overestimate the roll of science and underestimate the roll of philosophy. Most religious philosophies are obvious, while secular ones are over looked and just assumed correct by those wh…

> I'd argue that this not the case, that morality is a philosophical question. It's as much a philosophical question as health is a philosophical question. Yes, in some sense, it is, but much less so than people generally think. (It is also true that almost everything about life can be analyzed philosophically in far more detail than most people think, but then again, you don't really need much philosophical sophisti…

I'm sorry I don't follow your logic.

But I think we should leave it there, arguing with strangers on the internet doth butter no parsnips.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I third this opinion. I didn't / wouldn't upvote it but primarily due to the tone: it should be edited down and a bit more civil. That's it. No major objection from me. The note from Dang is good, it can help steer the commenter for the future.

Well I strongly disagree with this. I see no reason to believe civility and meaningful communication are directly correlated. Quite the contrary. Forcing others to maintain a tone you find pleasant (poorly defined variable) strips an entire sideband from a conversation. What's up with the insistence that everyone be warm and fuzzy at all times anyway?

I agree with you. I'm not easily impacted, or offended and can easily give as good as I get.

That said, we don't do that here, and there is value to be had. Happy to comply. There are lots of places to have that kind of dialog. I enjoy them, as I enjoy it here.

One thing I have noticed is rules about civility do tend to elevate and favor people with highly toxic views. Rebutting them without violating the rules is difficult.

But, it is possible to do. There is value in that skill as well.

My objection centers on the violation and valid, compliant responses to a hidden comment. We lose something there I would rather not lose.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I strongly disagree with this. I see no reason to believe civility and meaningful communication are directly correlated. Quite the contrary. Forcing others to maintain a tone you find pleasant (poorly defined variable) strips an entire sideband from a conversation. What's up with the insistence that everyone be warm and fuzzy at all times anyway?

Communication requires logic and logic requires the presentation of counter-examples. Wrapping counter-examples in warm fuzzies is merely obfuscation; it's a third-rate management technique.

This rings incomplete to me.

For technical, business, and many policy type conversations, your comment has merit. Some. I do not agree much with third rate...

But, a lot of conversation is actually advocacy, and when it goes there, all modes are relevant: emotion, reason, character.

Requiring people to limit advocacy to the rational only is not realistic, nor inclusive enough to make sense.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication requires logic and logic requires the presentation of counter-examples. Wrapping counter-examples in warm fuzzies is merely obfuscation; it's a third-rate management technique.

Emotional tone is communication of values. If one does not allow people to communicate their values verbally, then they will communicate them in less productive ways. Like downvoting/upvoting people based on values. Even worse, it selects for people who argue without acknowledging their values. Even worse, personally, if one personally doesn't acknowledge their emotions and their value systems, then they risk hobblin…

Great comment.
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