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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#151

Post by ddingus »

knieveltech wrote: post #137
danharaj wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lastly: From the tenor of your comment, it would seem that my writings have touched a nerve. Let's establish one thing first, and it's that I'm not a teenager and therefore my command of language is such that I have some degree of control over the tone I convey in writing. It does not take a struck nerve to litter someone's writing with fucks and write pointedly. Your writing style is as artificial as mine and I fi…

This comment and the one prior add quite a bit to the dialogue. These downvotes are unfortunate.

I agree. It's not that I prefer to validate those comments.

No, it's more about understanding. Personally, I would rather see the context and know something about the conflict than see [flagged] and see worthy rebuttals out of context.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#152

Post by konradb »

fein wrote: post #125
6d0debc071 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue? It's a bit dangerous if you start defining deviations from group norms; which is what delusions of morality would look like from within a group; as mental health issues without some moderating factor. Under those conditions the person who expresses, 'Maybe we shouldn't kill her just because she left the faith,' is mentally ill within…

I've been trying to come up with a response to this and keep ending up in a rabbit hole of thought. Ultimately what I feel is that we can step away from the micro image of religious and cultural influences, and actually look at what is right for all of humanity. We have a pretty decent system for that in what the world considers "basic human rights" I would argue that an honor killing culture is by definition mentall…

Have you looked closely at the core of Zen?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#153

Post by logicallee »

ddingus wrote: post #151
knieveltech wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment and the one prior add quite a bit to the dialogue. These downvotes are unfortunate.

I agree. It's not that I prefer to validate those comments. No, it's more about understanding. Personally, I would rather see the context and know something about the conflict than see [flagged] and see worthy rebuttals out of context.

I third this opinion. I didn't / wouldn't upvote it but primarily due to the tone: it should be edited down and a bit more civil. That's it. No major objection from me. The note from Dang is good, it can help steer the commenter for the future.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#154

Post by drdeca »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #124
dmfdmf wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principle of relativity is for velocities not morality.

So, do you have an objective source of morality for us to refer to?

By source do you mean way to know what is moral, or reason that there is a fact of the matter as to whether something is moral?

I don't think one necessarily must claim to know /why/ there is a fact of the matter as to what things are moral, in order to be justified in one's claim that there /is/ a fact of the matter?

Moral nihilism can fall down a well. (Note: I mean moral nihilism, not moral nihilists. Rhetoric. I don't have much against nihilists, except that I believe they are incorrect, and it is sometimes kind of scary to need to trust them?)

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#155

Post by vlehto »

clock_tower wrote: post #71
strayptr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilizations that have (generally) destructive, punitive, insular, judging, self-righteous, and violent myths don't. This seems to be the opposite of history. Until recently, violence was one of the only ways for any civilization to persist. The advent of nuclear weapons changed that somewhat (but not if civilizations begin to use them). And most of the myths of a civilization seem to be a byproduct of their actions…

Despite complaining about the Quakers below, I'd have to disagree here, too. It's possible to be too peaceful, but it's also possible -- and very easy and common -- to be too violent. Being warlike enough to defend your society is one thing; being warlike enough to conquer neighbors who hate you, or to throw away lives and wealth in pursuit of glory, is something else. Sparta, Assyria, and the Aztec Empire didn't tur…

Didn't Sparta get taken down by Macedonia. Who in turn got taken down by Rome? Sparta existed for ~500 years.

By that standard, we have extremely few dynasties who could be called "successful" these days. But I do agree that transitioning from very warlike to just somewhat warlike tends to help survival.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#158

Post by vlehto »

stcredzero wrote: post #129
CamperBob2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, do you have an objective source of morality for us to refer to?

Most human beings and human societies agree on the same general points of morality. - Killing -- Try really, really hard not to do this! - Lying -- Please try really, really hard not to do this! Or there's George Carlin's formulation: "Really try hard to not be a jerk!" I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what this means, and most people agree on the broad outlines. The devil is in the details, of course. Then…

I'd go bit further.

Let's assume everybody agreed with the "Really try hard to not be a jerk!" and everybody would have 100% similar general picture of what is moral.

Two people still interpret a situation from two points of view. Both making the judgement that the other guy is out of bounds. Which justifies some apprehension. But they both experience wrongful apprehension, which justifies pretty big apprehension. Which could result in full riot.

My point is that you cannot talk about ethics from individual point of view and expect to solve problems. You have to take into account societies as whole. Then consider with how it's done in practice. Ethical society cannot exist without good laws and good guardians for those laws. (And with 99% of population behaving good 99% of the time.)

Skeptical is not enough. Society has to be a instant jerk towards individuals who try to jerk around. Clear cut boundaries are needed, so you know to stay inside them.

I'd say there is no place for moral relativism inside a country. But between countries it's even necessary.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#159

Post by vlehto »

superuser2 wrote: post #40
dnautics wrote: post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

That when you commit a "wrong" act, your conscience is screaming "no!" but loses the battle for the drivers' seat to some other element of your consciousness, such as anger ("crime of passion" murder of a cheating spouse) or desperation to meet physical needs (stealing to feed a meth habit). The idea of sometimes-opposing parts of your consciousness vying for control is an ancient and quite popular idea. It is, for e…

It's also possible that in a study where you ask people "why you did it?" they don't tell the real reason.

Significant part of violence could be motivated by emotion and then rationalized as the just thing to do. Either before or after the act.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#160

Post by scotty79 »

nostrademons wrote: post #37

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide. The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that vio…

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them?

It's same as the question: Can I beat up retarded child because it bites, spits and screams.

Answer is, of course not, but you can and should overpower it and prevent it from harming themselves and others.

It's all silly pseudo-philosophical question as the one with the cart and the switch and killing one to save five. Question is framed so that people are tricked into doing math and forgetting that saving people is optional while not killing them is mandatory.

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