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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#31

Post by mgmeyers »

russnewcomer wrote: post #10

A pastor of mine once talked about this in context of Martin Luther and Zwingli ( in context of the Kappel Wars ), and talked about how violence is often the moral outgrowth of those who have grown so assured of their righteousness (in a Christian context) that they felt they could not sin by committing violence. He pointed to Matthew 5:21-26 and 5:38-47 (The Sermon on the Mount) to bolster his argument against viole…

> violence is often the moral outgrowth of those who have grown so assured of their righteousness

I like that.

This idea is also present in Buddhism, though they take it a step further and say that all suffering (everything from external violence to internal dissatisfaction with life) is caused by some form of judgment. They say the same thing that you mentioned above: violence is caused by the judgment, "I am right, you are wrong".

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#32

Post by sp332 »

kej wrote: post #8
wavefunction wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to laugh when I read your post because you use "redistribute wealth" to refer to bank robbery. I have to imagine you have likely referred to taxation as "theft" at least once.

I'm gonna guess that PhDs working on non-profit public domain cancer research probably don't overlap all that much with the taxation-is-theft crowd.

The non-profit is presumably tax-exempt, which doesn't help your point.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#33

Post by zatkin »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #20
fein wrote: post #9

> because most gun violence is not committed by people with mental health problems. Rather, it is committed by people who feel they are morally right in committing that act. Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue? I don't see these things being mutually exclusive.

Let's say you grow up in a poor community where murders happen often but are not often solved. You don't trust the police to serve justice to those who have wronged you. You notice that many of your neighbors solve their problems themselves - by fighting, threatening, killing. People often heckle you because you try to not fight back when people pick on you - there's a culture of toughness and honor all around you. N…

Doesn't that classify as self-defense?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#34

Post by d_t_w »

That's an extremely broad title.

If an individual soldier is motivated by their moral sentiment that they are fighting for democracy in Afghanistan and so that Afghan girls can get an education that is meaningless, the motivation of the leaders who took that decision is the primary cause of the violence.

My belief is that Western nations fight wars for economic reasons, but uses a moral argument to assuage the population and provide exculpation to the troops.

We simply do not put boots on the ground or bombs in the air for moral reasons, no matter how it's cloaked.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#35

Post by function_seven »

wavefunction wrote: post #4
dnautics wrote: post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

I have to laugh when I read your post because you use "redistribute wealth" to refer to bank robbery. I have to imagine you have likely referred to taxation as "theft" at least once.

He isn't using the term to refer to bank robbery, his hypothetical bank robber is. Just like right now you did not refer to taxation as "theft", even though that phrase is in your comment.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#36

Post by patmcc »

dnautics wrote: post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

Why can't the bank robber say "sure, robbing a bank is immoral, but I want money, so I don't care enough to not do it"?

I think eating animals is immoral. I still eat animals. I like the taste more than I dislike the immorality.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#37

Post by nostrademons »

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide.

The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that violence is never acceptable. What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them? Does the state ever have a right to put people to death for what they believe, even if what they believe is that large classes of people deserve to die? What if it's just the threat that someone may wish to do another harm? Are police officers justified in shooting a suspect if it appears that he might have a gun and is reaching for it?

There are also interesting questions about whether you should respect moral norms that are part of your moral code but not part of anothers'. For example, many Native American tribes did not believe in property rights, instead believing that the land and everything grown from it was communal property for the benefit of all; European settlers took this to mean that it was all theirs for the taking. Several of Ayn Rand's books extoll the virtue of selfishness, holding that the only bounds to your conduct should be freely agreed-upon contracts with others: knowing that other people do not hold to this moral code, is it moral to behave selfishly to them until they explicitly defend their rights, or do you have an obligation to consider what's commonly held to be moral amongst people unlike yourself when dealing with them?

There are plenty of implications for startups too, many of whom would not exist without a different conception of social norms than mainstream society.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#38

Post by paganel »

Xcelerate wrote: post #2

I believe the author's hypothesis is probably correct. It seems the only way to avoid the "well my case is different; violence is justified in this situation because..."-bias is to instill or promote a common moral that "violence is not okay – ever". It's the only way you can be sure that you're not falling into the same biases that our "enemies" have fallen into. The more I learn about cognitive biases, the more I t…

> -bias is to instill or promote a common moral that "violence is not okay – ever".

I haven't read it, to be honest, but that's what Kant was saying in his "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic...). I'd say that even though we're not there yet, we have been getting closer and closer to that ideal in the last 200 years, with the well-known hiccups along the way.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#39

Post by talmand »

wavefunction wrote: post #25
kej wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna guess that PhDs working on non-profit public domain cancer research probably don't overlap all that much with the taxation-is-theft crowd.

Which part is supposed to convince me otherwise? The PhD? Non-profit public domain cancer research? There's nothing inherent in either of those personal qualities to suggest such. I have never heard anyone refer to theft as "redistributing wealth" without corresponding usages of "taxation = theft."

I can see theft being excused as redistributing wealth and I don't necessarily think taxation is theft.

But I also say I can see a situation where redistributing wealth is not theft and in some cases I can think that taxation is, in fact, theft.

It all depends on context.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#40

Post by superuser2 »

dnautics wrote: post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

That when you commit a "wrong" act, your conscience is screaming "no!" but loses the battle for the drivers' seat to some other element of your consciousness, such as anger ("crime of passion" murder of a cheating spouse) or desperation to meet physical needs (stealing to feed a meth habit).

The idea of sometimes-opposing parts of your consciousness vying for control is an ancient and quite popular idea. It is, for example, the basis of justice in the Republic (that the balance of power among the parts of your soul is correct).

>Would the bank robber have to say, "well I know this is wrong, but..."

Yes! The end of that sentence is "I needed the money" and that kind of thing happens all the time.

The thesis of the article is that this kind of violence is in fact very small-scale compared to violence committed with complete faith in its own justice. Which is pretty plausible: state military action, non-state terrorism, the criminal justice system, "legitimate" administrators of corporeal punishment, etc. operate on a much larger scale than wives killing their husbands for the life insurance money. The latter is the primary focus of the enormously popular television genre of police procedurals and obviously pretty far forward in people's minds, where international relations and the ethics of spanking may not be.

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