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The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

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Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#51

Post by jeffdavis »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #48
jeffdavis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it inequality from one person to another, or just unequal life stages for the same individual? You could imagine a college student from a middle-class background earning very little from 20-30, then being middle-income from 30-40, then upper-income from 40-65, then retired until 85. Their independent life (20+) is 65 years, of which 30 are low-income, 10 middle-income, and 25 high income.

Valid point, but I believe that you mean that 10 are low-income.

Retirees typically count as low income, so I included the retired years as low income.

Another consideration is household size. Before, retirees may have been more likely to live with their children, but now they live more independently.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#52

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

meric wrote: post #6
adenadel wrote: post #3

Interesting that (since 1971) of the 10% that have "left" the middle class, 7% have moved upward while 3% have moved downward.

A bifurcation of society on the order of 4% over 45 years seem slow enough to not worry about...

... Says the frog in the pot.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#53

Post by throwaway999888 »

neves wrote: post #26

I see people commenting in the technicalities of a middle class definition. They should be worried with the tendency. As a foreigner, my great admiration of the American society is that of the Self Made Man. That working hard you can have a decent life and even become rich. That everybody should have the same opportunities. Even if this is all a myth, just the belief and the desire to make it happen, is great.

> As a foreigner, my great admiration of the American society is that of the Self Made Man. That working hard you can have a decent life and even become rich. That everybody should have the same opportunities. Even if this is all a myth, just the belief and the desire to make it happen, is great.

So go watch a movie or read a book about it. The actual reality which doesn't care about your fanciful beliefs will be waiting for when you're ready to return.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#54

Post by gweinberg »

daveguy wrote: post #44
ralfruns wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in the lower income bracket don't go to the polls in the same rate as the higher income bracket. Upps forgot the source: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/income-gap-at...

There should be a national "voting day" holiday. Not having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for hourly wage workers.

Having one is the equivalent of a poll tax for the self-employed!

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#55

Post by fweespeech »

ryandrake wrote: post #41
dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

> Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction

That isn't true. I work for a living but I also accumulate 5 figures of capital every year, do that for 20-25 years, and I don't have to work for a living anymore.

Working class folks don't really have that option.

> Sure you may have more toys than others, but the things you think/worry about from day to day are similar.

That is poor financial planning. If you are middle income, you should be saving money so you don't have to work for a living instead of buying more toys.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#56

Post by jhanschoo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

I've almost always seen class in America to be based on income. It seems useful to publish results that define class by income; it is commonly understood to be income; income may not have as much a correlation with power and quality of life as capital as you suggest, but i preaume that it is still large. Finally, the deciding reason to measure income class is the probable assumption that it is far easier and far more accurate to obtain estimates on the income of US citizens than on their net worth.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#57

Post by jazzyk »

mikeash wrote: post #42
mtgx wrote: post #15

Yet most Americans have no problem supporting either an asshole billionaire or someone who thinks it's "their turn to be president" and is supported by Wall Street billionaires (the same people responsible for the 2008 economic crash). Most people don't seem to know what's good for them.

Clinton is supported by about 50% of Democrats. Trump is supported by about 25% of Republicans. That doesn't add up to anywhere close to "most Americans."

Perhaps. But chances are that these two will become their parties' candidates and then most Americans _will_ have to choose between them.

The US has so many smart, hard working people, we deserve better.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#58

Post by fweespeech »

petergatsby wrote: post #28
tryitnow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is just stating the middle class is shrinking - and inequality is therefore increasing. And increasing inequality is a problem. The problem with increasing inequality is not necessarily decreasing mean incomes. Inequality is a problem because of the increasing class-based polarization of society, the power differential between different families, and a host of other factors. All of which can be present an…

I'm not sure that class-based polarization is inherently problematic. Surely some degree of inequality is an inviolable consequence of a society that values both freedom and private ownership. Imagine an America in which the poorest families had two cars and a four-bedroom house, in a safe neighborhood with good schools. Would it then be considered problematic if Gates and Buffet became trillionaires? The problem is…

> I'm not sure that class-based polarization is inherently problematic

The way people behave when there is class-based polarization in the US is inherently problematic.

The simple fact is the lower class has to be subsidized and that money largely has to flow from the upper class. The middle class, for the most part, is a break even proposition once you factor in the cost of Medicare & Social Security for the middle class.

Its a large part of why one party is so quick to blame "entitlements" is as long as they can remain on the offensive, their benefactors are largely protected.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#59

Post by guelo »

dragonwriter wrote: post #12

Measuring "class" by income distribution measures like this kind of misses the point; more accurately this is "Most Americans no longer fit a particular definition of 'middle income'". Class distinctions are about significant qualitative distinctions, not points on a simple quantitative distribution. A reasonable upper/middle/lower class distinction could be made where the upper class has capital assets that they can…

The problem with inequality is the polarization, the haves and the have nots with no in between. That leads to a more brutal society where there is no ground for agreement.

Re: The Tipping Point: Most Americans No Longer Are Middle Class

#60

Post by dpark »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #47
ryandrake wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's a simpler, binary question: You're either rely on your own labor for a living (in other words, you're N missed paychecks away from zero), or you don't rely on your own labor. Some people think if their number "N" is high enough they can call themselves "middle class" to distinguish themselves from poorer people, but it's a small distinction. At the end of the day, you either have to work for a living or yo…

I think "middle class" is "working class (by your definition) but headed out". That is, you are middle class if you are working and making enough by doing so to start accumulating capital. If you're working, and using your surplus to accumulate toys, you're just a wealthier version of lower class (also a not very wise one, in my opinion).

Is your have tons of disposable income and you blow it on toys, you aren't lower class. You're just really bad at managing your money.

It's absurd to try to define middle class by behavior rather than means. Someone making 100k/year is absolutely not lower class, regardless of whether they blow all their money on frivolous stuff.

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