1984 – When women stopped coding • Hacker News Board

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#191

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

DeusExMachina wrote: post #40

jessaustin wrote: post #17

The share of women in computer science started falling at roughly the same moment when personal computers started showing up in U.S. homes in significant numbers... And these... were marketed almost entirely to men and boys. Great, another travesty for which we have marketing to thank.

The hate towards marketing that is present on HN is almost comical at times. My experience is that, the more you study how marketing works, the more you realize marketing is about what people already want and try to appeal to that. Sure, big companies like Coca Cola have more sophisticated techniques to make their brands appealing, but still, if you look at Coca Cola's marketing, what they sell is "happiness", which…

> marketing is about what people already want and try to appeal to that.

Like figuring out that people already want not to be talk about behind their backs and ostracized for their flaws, then telling them that they stink (vide halitosis) and appealing to that by selling them unnecessary or potentially harmful fluid to apply orally.

Yes. Well done. Marketing created more than one stupid cultural habit. Why the hate?

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#192

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 11:17 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #178

grandDesigns wrote: post #78

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

You don't even need to go all the way up to medicine. According to US News and Report "Best Jobs"[1][2], median salaries for developers in San Francisco ($114,400), ostensibly ground zero for the "shortage", are only a whisker higher than they are for dental hygienists ($112,970) and are considerably lower than for registered nurses ($127,670). [1] go to US News and World Report "Best Jobs" and drill down by salary a…

> median salaries for developers in San Francisco ($114,400), ostensibly ground zero for the "shortage", are only a whisker higher than they are for dental hygienists ($112,970) and are considerably lower than for registered nurses ($127,670).

What are you trying to prove? Nurses are a frequently-identified national shortage. So, unless you are trying to, by comparison, establish that there is also a shortage in dental hygienists (which I have no problem believing), I'm not sure what you are trying to establish.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#193

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 12:31 AM UTC

nightspirit wrote: post #108

threatofrain wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had some similar anecdotal experiences in an education franchise, where I've found that it's very difficult to convince boys or girls that math, physics, programming, or computer science is fun or worthy. In fact, I have trouble convincing them that any intellectual pursuit is worthy. Kids tend to enjoy "science" more, but only in terms of what appears to them as fun experiment. When you try to explain anything…

> I've had some similar anecdotal experiences in an education franchise, where I've found that it's very difficult to convince boys or girls that math, physics, programming, or computer science is fun or worthy. I think kids often operate on simple social heuristics. Guess what it means when somebody tells you ad nausem that something is important to you while his tone, body language and whatnot consistently shows th…

While that may have worked with you, I think that approach would sink a lot of kids. Kids need direction because their innate biological scaffolding or propensities could not have anticipated the hotness of some domain of ability. Left on their own, some kids would find learning on their own, and most would sink themselves.

I think religion is an even worse example. I'm pretty sure that religious views are better explained by parents than by a child's personal inclination. I doubt the Christian children of America were Christian because of personal investigation.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#194

Post by tzs » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 2:08 AM UTC

> But in 1984, something changed. The number of women in computer science flattened, and then plunged.

So did the number of men. Bachelor's degrees in CS peaked in the US with 27k men, 15k women in 1985-86. Then they dropped by 1993-94 to 17.5k men, 7k women, and then started going back up. By 2002-04, they both had reached new peaks of 44.5k men, 15.5k women.

There's something going on here that is more complicated than what is captured in that sex ratio graph.

Data from here: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#195

Post by chrishynes » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 2:33 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #85

wernercd wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual Studio 2015 Community Edition is considered a top-notch programming environment... and it's free. It would be the perfect place to put something with built in programming hooks into Minecraft. And... there is already too many people putting too much garbage on devices that people don't need... last thing we need is being loaded down with crap - whether Python, perl or Visual Studios - on a default install of W…

> Visual Studio 2015 Community Edition is considered a top-notch programming environment... and it's free. Free but closed-source. Kids should also learn the value and power of Freedom.

Visual Studio Code is also excellent and open source: https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#196

Post by geebee » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 3:33 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #192

geebee wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even need to go all the way up to medicine. According to US News and Report "Best Jobs"[1][2], median salaries for developers in San Francisco ($114,400), ostensibly ground zero for the "shortage", are only a whisker higher than they are for dental hygienists ($112,970) and are considerably lower than for registered nurses ($127,670). [1] go to US News and World Report "Best Jobs" and drill down by salary a…

> median salaries for developers in San Francisco ($114,400), ostensibly ground zero for the "shortage", are only a whisker higher than they are for dental hygienists ($112,970) and are considerably lower than for registered nurses ($127,670). What are you trying to prove? Nurses are a frequently-identified national shortage. So, unless you are trying to, by comparison, establish that there is also a shortage in dent…

The NPR report notes that while women continued to enter medicine and law in large numbers, enrollment in computer science abruptly declined, then seeks to explain this through a heavy emphasis on cultural factors. I believe that we should be placing greater consideration on economic factors, and consider that entering computer science may not be economically rational when you consider the other options women now have (though I also do agree that cultural factors play a substantial role as well). I argue out that even nursing and dental hygiene may have better, more predictable economic outcomes than computer science.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#197

Post by facepalm » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 10:13 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #184

facepalm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that likely?

I said more likely, but why is that more likely? Because huge shift in public opinion are from my experience, most likely made by marketing agencies. Also ads like these: http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/...

Certainly a horrible ad. But it is for buying a machine. If such ads were the culprit, women shouldn't be driving cars either? I don't know what the ads were like at the time, but I am pretty sure they made similar ads for cars. Also not sure what kind of ads were targeted at women. It's pretty common to this day, although cheap, to just mix a random product with the claim "will make you more attractive to the opposite sex".

Wasn't it also the case that at first operating computers was deemed a task for secretaries, and then the perception changed?

I suppose they could have shown ads of secretaries being loved by their bosses because they work so efficiently thanks to their shiny new computers.

Edit: http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/MiscAds/AdamAd.JPG - women should just have used Macs?

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#198

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 11:54 AM UTC

CrLf wrote: post #98

mattmanser wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming a major system has absolutely no need of a CS degree. I know and have worked with programmers with and without a CS degree (I'm one of the ones without). As far as I can tell it's no indicator of programmer skill at all.

Just like building a skyscraper doesn't require a degree. You don't need a degree to lay bricks, pour cement or assemble rebar. But you do if you're the one designing the structure in the first place. There is a lot of knowledge to be gained by experience, but sometimes it's useful to have knowledge gained from books, and in particular from books you had no interest reading in the first place (which is the real value…

Amazingly, I can design programs too (you arrogant prick). Comparing yourself to an architect and me to a bricklayer.

Sorry, is mee too dumb-dumb to read bookie wookie?

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#199

Post by purpled_haze » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 12:04 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #193

nightspirit wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had some similar anecdotal experiences in an education franchise, where I've found that it's very difficult to convince boys or girls that math, physics, programming, or computer science is fun or worthy. I think kids often operate on simple social heuristics. Guess what it means when somebody tells you ad nausem that something is important to you while his tone, body language and whatnot consistently shows th…

While that may have worked with you, I think that approach would sink a lot of kids. Kids need direction because their innate biological scaffolding or propensities could not have anticipated the hotness of some domain of ability. Left on their own, some kids would find learning on their own, and most would sink themselves. I think religion is an even worse example. I'm pretty sure that religious views are better exp…

I don't remember any children I've met that started to go to church on their own, but I've met some adults that grew up in a non-believing family and then became Christians, but they have been the minority.

I think, as others have said, your parents and everyone else help teach you, in one way or another. I wasn't brought up in a religious house, but we went to church every Sunday through high school, and I personally believe in God. I really became a Christian in high school when I decided for myself it was right for me, though. I went through a long period after that where I fell away from God, but then I came back to Christianity again. After I came back, even when my father and others had doubts, my belief in God has still been intact, and it is one of the things that essentially drives me even when I've had feelings numerous times that life was not worth living or that I was a failure.

I say all of this, because I don't think some of the people here have any Christians actually tell them this sort of thing. Many in the world just think it is some sort of cult full of irrational people that if they only just came to their senses, they'd stop annoying others and waging war. The fact is that religions are not evil, bad, or wrong. It is people that do bad things, not religions. Some religions may call for bad things, in which case, I'd suggest not doing them. That is a personal decision.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#200

Post by MollyR » Thu, Dec 10, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

cicero wrote: post #132

I've read elsewhere how in the earliest days of computers, men designed the hardware and relegated the programming to women because it was seen as clerical work, albeit advanced clerical work. Because of this, women, such as Grace Hopper, became well established in the field. The advent of the Apple II and TRS-80 exposed kids (including myself) to computers, and with these machines, programming was the most accessibl…

I know my father played a big role in getting me into computers. When I was little, I watched him program, and our whole family played kings quest together. I have fond memories of our computer time, which I think lead me into programming/comp sci. I definitely didn't do cs because I loved math.

I definitely carry his passion and enthusiasm. While growing up, my mother learned about computers with me too. I'm not sure where family fits in the grand scheme of things, but I think it plays an important role.