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1984 – When women stopped coding

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Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it may have improved I feel like it's still quite low. Outside of the valley and a few other key cities we're still largely considered anti-social dweebs who can't talk to women, have regressive sexist ideologies, are pedantic assholes, etc.

The image of the computer scientist/programmer/data scientist is changing pretty rapidly within the younger generation. STEM degrees garner a lot of respect, especially CS degrees, because everyone has suddenly become obsessed with "intelligence" as an indicator of future success and wealth, to the detriment of professionalism and altruism. Programming is now cool and desirable - you can see the shifts everywhere in…

And the influx of MBAs and tech-related MBA programs!

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#132
I've read elsewhere how in the earliest days of computers, men designed the hardware and relegated the programming to women because it was seen as clerical work, albeit advanced clerical work. Because of this, women, such as Grace Hopper, became well established in the field.

The advent of the Apple II and TRS-80 exposed kids (including myself) to computers, and with these machines, programming was the most accessible aspect. You could try to modify the hardware, but then you risked ruining the most expensive piece of equipment in the home. However, you experiment all you wanted with the BASIC prompt, and that's how I learned to program. There is something different about girls and boys such that this kind of tinkering with gadgets appeals much more to boys than girls.

I remember excitedly showing our new Apple II to my cousin who is 6 years older than me, and who had recently finished her CS degree and was working in "data processing." I expected her to have the same gee-whiz reaction I had, but she was not impressed. To her, the Apple II was a silly and expensive toy.

I think that in a way, when myself and other male "Micro Kids" entered the university and professional CS world, we changed the dynamic from a more professional to a more hacker-like culture. Not only did our numbers heavily tilt the gender distribution, but I think we also made the culture less attractive to women.

My cousin, now in her late 50s, is still in IT as a higher-level manager in a large oil and gas firm. Right now, she appears to be spending a lot of time dealing with the logistics of some major office relocations. It is probably the kind of work that many on HN would consider boring, but I am sure it is essential to the smooth operation of a large modern corporation. When I hear her talk about her work, she comes across as being more responsible and practical than her younger male peers, and I don't doubt that's the case.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#133

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

It's quite a different story now. You're looking at a ~14 year incubation period before you're making those types of numbers as a physician (bachelors, med school, residency, fellowship), plus having to take on significant debt. An overwhelmingly large number of physicians also report a low quality of life and urge others not to enter the profession.

I'm not sure how it is for lawyers, but I would imagine there is also a significant up front investment before you start making real money (if you ever do). Contrast this with CS where you can make 6 figures right out of college with significantly less pain during the training process.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, software engineers also had low social status. Only recently did our profession become more respectable.

While it may have improved I feel like it's still quite low. Outside of the valley and a few other key cities we're still largely considered anti-social dweebs who can't talk to women, have regressive sexist ideologies, are pedantic assholes, etc.

Honest question, what exactly do you mean by your statement? Is it that, when you meet a stranger and tell them your profession, they judge you that way?

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#135
post #56
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my kids to have good technical skills but also great people skills.

So? It's not like the people in Slovenia, Poland, or the Philippines are less intelligent or less well educated than people from Western Europe.

So? So my kids don't live in a low wage country and will need to differentiate themselves to keep making the big bucks.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#136
post #132

I've read elsewhere how in the earliest days of computers, men designed the hardware and relegated the programming to women because it was seen as clerical work, albeit advanced clerical work. Because of this, women, such as Grace Hopper, became well established in the field. The advent of the Apple II and TRS-80 exposed kids (including myself) to computers, and with these machines, programming was the most accessibl…

>There is something different about girls and boys such that this kind of tinkering with gadgets appeals much more to boys than girls.

There is something different about what our culture teaches and signals to girls and boys from the moment they are born such that this kind of tinkering with gadgets appeals much more to boys than girls.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#137

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

Your analysis is sloppy on several fronts.

1) Medicine and Law are professions, programming is not. You could arguably compare to CS professors, but that's still apples and oranges. 2) It doesn't make any sense to compare (peak, median, whatever) yearly salaries when you have wildly different career paths (e.g. 0 years of school vs. 10+) , debt, etc. What you want is lifetime earnings. 3) Lawyers in general don't make anything like what you think they do. Doctors distribution is also lower than your range suggests.

You are right that some of these professions offer, for a smallish number of people, a clear path to a solid upper middle class salary (and few options outside of that).

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#138
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it may have improved I feel like it's still quite low. Outside of the valley and a few other key cities we're still largely considered anti-social dweebs who can't talk to women, have regressive sexist ideologies, are pedantic assholes, etc.

Honest question, what exactly do you mean by your statement? Is it that, when you meet a stranger and tell them your profession, they judge you that way?

Definitely. I've heard several women friends of mine say they usually avoid dating men in IT. I've also personally gone on a date with a woman who said she was pleasantly surprised I could actually hold a conversation with her. I've heard terms like "engineer autism" to refer to the quirky social awkwardness that is associated with men in IT.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it may have improved I feel like it's still quite low. Outside of the valley and a few other key cities we're still largely considered anti-social dweebs who can't talk to women, have regressive sexist ideologies, are pedantic assholes, etc.

The image of the computer scientist/programmer/data scientist is changing pretty rapidly within the younger generation. STEM degrees garner a lot of respect, especially CS degrees, because everyone has suddenly become obsessed with "intelligence" as an indicator of future success and wealth, to the detriment of professionalism and altruism. Programming is now cool and desirable - you can see the shifts everywhere in…

Perhaps it is cool - but it is still not a popular major to study. Very, very few of my kids' friends in high school picked a STEM major, even fewer CS. Top 10 high school in Massachusetts (which is No. 1 in the US)

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#140
post #105

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

I really question where you are getting your numbers they don't really make sense to me. Second, I will point out that the market for lawyers is completely oversaturated, so if you go to law school unless you went to a top ten law school you may end up working at Starbucks (slight exageration). As far as medicine their is very clear demand but the costs to get their are very high. You have an extra $100K, for 4 years…

I think the argument is that "big bucks" in CS is relative and the ceiling is much higher in medicine specifically (and to a certain extent law but you're 100% correct about the oversaturation).

Outside of San Francisco and (maybe) NYC, "big bucks" for a programmer with no managerial responsibilities is probably somewhere in the $120-180k range. In my very low cost of living area, it's in the $100-120k range. You just cannot get a job for more than $9-10k/mo in the area doing development. Team leads/tech leads are similarly priced, and it's not until you're managing multiple teams that you're in the area of $150k.

And yes a new doctor will be 5-6 years older and make less than a new programmer. But "big bucks" for a physician is measured in the hundreds of thousands. Anesthesiology tops $430k a year in median salary.[2] It's absolutely a harder, more demanding job, and it starts out much less forgiving. But the ladder extends much, much further and depending on specialty it's hard not to end up solidly upper class regardless of geographic area or cost of living.

The 2012 median annual wage for "Computer programmers" is $72k[0]

The 2012 median annual wage for a lawyer is $114k, with an arguably much more difficult job market[1], but is incredibly close to the top 10% of computer programmers (which is $118k).

The 2012 median annual wage for a physicians is above the maximum reported value of $187,200[2]

[0] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/c... [1] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm#tab-5 [2] http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/physicians-and-surgeons.ht...

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