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Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

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Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#61

Post by MrZongle2 »

nmridul wrote: post #12

The global warming brigade hijacked the pollution issue. There always will be a debate on global warming. So keeping global warming as the prime focus of fossil fuel usage kept people divided. If pollution was the prime focus from day one, then more push would have been given to renewable. Maybe, Arnold is able to bring more people to think in this direction.

"The global warming brigade hijacked the pollution issue."

This is why I hate environmental discussions with a passion, because at some point if one expresses less than total agreement with the AGW crowd you apparently are in the pocket of Smokey McCoalstove and enjoy smog, dead fish, and coughing babies. Martin Luther received a warmer response from the Catholic Church than some "deniers" who dare question the established dogma.

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#62

Post by lmm »

drcube wrote: post #60
lmm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a 10-hour-each-way trip frequently? Man, stop throwing away your life like that. Downsize your house, take a pay cut, do whatever it is you have to to move somewhere closer. I struggle to even begin to imagine the misery of what you're doing.

You don't have relatives across the country? Or you just don't visit them?

Furthest in the same country is 200 miles away; I have an uncle 900 miles away who I visit occasionally (as in once in ~3 years). But in any case I take the train or fly, and sleep or watch a movie or even code on the way.

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#63

Post by saosebastiao »

stcredzero wrote: post #23
saosebastiao wrote: post #14

Door 2 is also likely fatal. Most electric motors produce ozone :)

You are most certainly technically incorrect, which is the worst kind of incorrect. It would take very very high levels of ozone to be anywhere near as promptly fatal as carbon monoxide poisoning from running a gasoline powered car inside a closed garage. As far as I know, no one commits suicide by running an electric motor in a closed room. Ozone causes oxidative damage to tissues, including the delicate tissues of…

It is plainly obvious that CO and even CO2 from IC engines is drastically more fatal than anything coming out of an electric motor...I thought the trolling attempt was transparent, but apparently not. If I really wanted to provide a counter to the article, pollution from battery manufacturing is far more concerning than ozone (which has a half life measured in days) from brushed electric motors. And even that appears to be far less of a problem than the carbon economy.

That being said, ozone can be fatal over the long term, and researchers regularly segment pollution death estimates to include ozone pollution [1].

[1] http://www.iop.org/news/13/jul/page_60518.html

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#65

Post by rybosome »

When speaking with people who do not agree with me on the correctness or urgency of global warming, this is the argument I traditionally make: let's examine the worst-case scenarios. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the science, taking it seriously is a logical choice.

The plausible worst-case scenario of charging ahead with measures to combat climate change isn't actually that bad, not to mention the ancillary benefits outlined by Schwarzenegger. Aggressively stimulating the renewables economy would be a death knell for the fossil-fuel industry, which could harm the overall economy (though renewables would also contribute positively). It would be disruptive to sections of the country that are dependent upon the fossil-fuel industry (coal country in Kentucky, for instance), which would be very hard on the people living there. This is certainly bad and should not be done lightly, but it's hardly apocalyptic.

The plausible worst-case scenario of failing to address climate change is _really_ bad, ranging from property destruction all the way to civilizational collapse or even potentially human extinction[1]. In a world with nuclear weapons, large-scale destabilization resulting from famine, drought and loss of land to flooding is a very dangerous thing. The Earth is the only home we have, why even flirt with the possibility of disrupting our currently livable climate?

...and that argument doesn't even take the scientific consensus on the existence of human-cased global warming into account.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoxic_event#Atmospheric_effec...

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#66

Post by splawn »

mrfusion wrote: post #48
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain your lack of belief when 97% of climate scientists (there's conflicting data on this; some reports show as high as 99%) agree that human activity is causing global warming? EDIT: That's not rhetorical. I'll entertain any logical reasoning you have as to why your reasoning is superior to those educated and practicing the subject daily.

I'm sure a large majority of nutrition scientists supported a low fat diet 20 years ago. (Food for thought)

exactly! pssh science, what good is it? /s

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#67

Post by Daishiman »

amalag wrote: post #20
nmridul wrote: post #12

The global warming brigade hijacked the pollution issue. There always will be a debate on global warming. So keeping global warming as the prime focus of fossil fuel usage kept people divided. If pollution was the prime focus from day one, then more push would have been given to renewable. Maybe, Arnold is able to bring more people to think in this direction.

I agree with this. Amazing that we need AS to give people a dose of wisdom. I have to agree with everything he said. I am not convinced about CO2 causing global warming but I am 100% ok with our society pushing away from coal, gasoline and fracking.

"I am not convinced about CO2 causing global warming"

Honestly, how convinced you are about it is only relevant because economic interests have planted a seed of doubt about it.

Your position to question the science on climate change is about as good as it is on a myriad other issues which no one seems keen on questioning. If there weren't a lobby doing it, your uncertainty would be as much as what qualified experts have.

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#68

Post by magicalist »

mrfusion wrote: post #48
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain your lack of belief when 97% of climate scientists (there's conflicting data on this; some reports show as high as 99%) agree that human activity is causing global warming? EDIT: That's not rhetorical. I'll entertain any logical reasoning you have as to why your reasoning is superior to those educated and practicing the subject daily.

I'm sure a large majority of nutrition scientists supported a low fat diet 20 years ago. (Food for thought)

> I'm sure a large majority of nutrition scientists supported a low fat diet 20 years ago. (Food for thought)

Sure, and a large majority of physicists supported General Relativity 20 years ago.

If your point is that vague analogies aren't helpful and specifics are needed, I think that was precisely what toomuchtodo was getting at.

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#69

Post by Daishiman »

gozur88 wrote: post #58
mbreese wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny - I don't really see much of a debate...

That's because you're reflexively dismissing people on the other side. They're still there, though.

What "other side"??

The only people who are questioning the science are the ones who don't have the necessary knowledge to evaluate the claims scientifically and who have an economic stake in continuing fossil fuel usage.

No climate scientists oppose it. I have not seen a single, reliable and useful model which goes against the fundamentals of climate change. There are no alternative hypothesis that explain the climate phenomena we're experiencing now.

No has dismissed anything reflexively. It is only the years and years of ludicruous, ignorant and politically motivated arguments against climate change that have solidified that position for many of us.

Re: Schwarzenegger: I don’t give a damn if we agree about climate change

#70

Post by kafkaesq »

There are two doors. Behind Door Number One is a completely sealed room, with a regular, gasoline-fueled car. Behind Door Number Two is an identical, completely sealed room, with an electric car. Both engines are running full blast.

I want you to pick a door to open, and enter the room and shut the door behind you. You have to stay in the room you choose for one hour. You cannot turn off the engine. You do not get a gas mask.

I'm guessing you chose the Door Number Two, with the electric car, right? Door number one is a fatal choice - who would ever want to breathe those fumes?

This is the choice the world is making right now.

The choices aren't that simple, Arnold, and the analogy you're making isn't valid, either. Does he not understand that that "clean" electric car requires an energy grid to run on? And that this grid is very far from "clean", and will be for quite some time? And that the process of creating (and decomissioning) electric cars is very far from environmentally harmless, also?

I'm not saying that there's no positive trade-off in favor of electric cars; most likely there is. But fear-driven arguments (even if pointed in the "right" direction) don't help much, and have a similar effect on the brain as carbon monoxide, over time.

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