Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy • Hacker News Board

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#41

Post by Lawtonfogle » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:24 PM UTC

a_bonobo wrote: post #3

Google: > There are no ads in these Core Services, and student data in these services is not used for advertising purposes. This isn't in the original EFF complaint, EFF specifically says (at least in the press release [1]) that Google doesn't advertise: EFF: >This allows Google to track, store on its servers, and data mine for non-advertising purposes Google then says: >In addition, our systems compile data aggregat…

>except when needed for legitimate educational purposes or if parents provide permission.

Lowering a broken page's rank so that students only see working pages helps their educational experience.

I'm not saying I completely agree with the argument, but it isn't a bold face lie.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#42

Post by ocdtrekkie » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:29 PM UTC

dvdplm wrote: post #7

a_bonobo wrote: post #3

Google: > There are no ads in these Core Services, and student data in these services is not used for advertising purposes. This isn't in the original EFF complaint, EFF specifically says (at least in the press release [1]) that Google doesn't advertise: EFF: >This allows Google to track, store on its servers, and data mine for non-advertising purposes Google then says: >In addition, our systems compile data aggregat…

I agree with you. I get the impression that data aggregation&analysis is so deeply ingrained in Google company culture that it's entirely possible the responsible people truly believes nothing went wrong here.

From everything I understand about Google culture from current and former Googlers I talk to, Google employees categorically believe data aggregation has no bearing on privacy concerns at all, and that there's fundamentally nothing even bordering on questionable in anything they do with it.

At the very least, Googlers :believe: they're 'doing the right thing', so they :believe: their marketing and their mottos, at least.

It's up to us to convince Google that it's wrong.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#43

Post by ocdtrekkie » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:32 PM UTC

sukulaku wrote: post #29

mtgx wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that if law enforcement (from any country) knocks on Google's door, they will say "sorry, we can't provide that individual's data, because we collected it in aggregate "? Of course not. Google still has that individual's data and can personally identify him. It's just their policy not to use that data when using machine learning and whatnot to get a result out of it. Also, such "anonymized data" is never…

> It's just their policy not to use that data when using machine learning and whatnot to get a result out of it. So Google is like a child that wants to eat candy, has candy , but doesn't eat it? Of course they're using all the data they can, to the extent they can. They're just telling us there's no reason to worry, while they feed their data to the NSA's surveillance machinery etc. You see, Google is not the only "…

That's pretty accurate. Google seems to have a huge fascination with collecting data, refuses to let us opt out of most of that data collection (without opting out of those services entirely), and then just expects us to 'trust them' that they aren't using it inappropriately.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#44

Post by ocdtrekkie » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:34 PM UTC

cmcnally wrote: post #35

dozzie wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why exactly are you supprised that services designed to be integrated deeply with one another are integrated with one another? Integration pretty much guarantees that data will leak between them. This is one of the main reasons why I don't use Google services, except for their search engine.

Have you tried DuckDuckGo? With the exception of maps and directions, I actually prefer their search experience to Google's.

I just started trying DDG after using Bing for a while. DuckDuckGo is pretty solid, and I find the fact that anyone can submit new 'instant answers' type features to the search engine to be intriguing and novel. Google and Bing only get smarter if Googlers and Microsoft employees write it, but anyone can make DuckDuckGo better. (Though it's not fully open source.)

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#45

Post by mark_l_watson » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:39 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #37

DadFoundMy wrote: post #10

I am an American high school senior and can say confidently that most American students are screwed over pretty extensively when it comes to the software they are forced to use. I have several classes that require the use of proprietary software such as Google classroom, Microsoft silver light, and Adobe flash. On top of that I cannot even remember the last time I was given a document that wasn't a .docx. It would be…

My two sons are in middle school. The school has been transitioning to Google (from self-hosted Windows/Office). They presented a computer/network use and privacy policy for parents to sign. After reading it I sat my kids down and told them to under no circumstances do anything with the school's computers or WiFi network other than activity strictly related to their school assignments. No personal email, no casual we…

+1 for paying attention to the privacy policy!

Our daughter and son in law are also similarly careful about our grandkids' use of school systems and the Internet in general.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#46

Post by cmcnally » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:40 PM UTC

krisdol wrote: post #39

cmcnally wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried DuckDuckGo? With the exception of maps and directions, I actually prefer their search experience to Google's.

It's been my home page for years. Originally i would still often go directly to google for better results, but each year the amount of times I'd do that decreased. Now I'm actually really happy with DDG results, and when I do perform the same search on Google, it ends up being less accurate. I think this is because Google has such a huge belief that personalization yields accuracy, but it doesn't. Past trends don't a…

Well worded. I couldn't agree more.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#47

Post by mark_l_watson » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 2:52 PM UTC

I want to be fare to Google but their response was not satisfying to me. There should be no leakage of students' data that will persist and have an effect on students' digital (and physical) lives later in life. I side with the EFF on this issue.

In the comments, a parent advises their kids to only use their Chromebooks for class activities and never for personal email and web browsing. Great advice, and should work fine for children with privacy respecting smartphones.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#48

Post by mattlutze » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 3:02 PM UTC

yeukhon wrote: post #17

Here is a strawman, because I want to challenge the other parallel universe. Let's say this whole pledge thing didn't exist and the only thing that GAFE promise is no ads. Now let's supposed Google is collecting and anonymizing usage data, like most sofwares do, is that a big deal? Since 99% of the people won't read the ToS and most people assume some level of usage data will be collected, what would be people's stan…

They don't collect anonymized data. They collect data, then anonymize it for aggregation by their machine learning systems. They still have data with user information in it.

I'd be surprised if it was just "for regular development purposes."

I'd wager that collected usage information in drives marketing and sales efforts, to enterprise customers at least but perhaps consumers as well. And while it's not directly used to target ads at the students on that platform, I'd be similarly surprised if it wasn't used to train their commercial-side profiles to make targeting "anonymous" 12-18 year-olds more effective.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#49

Post by irremediable » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 3:36 PM UTC

DadFoundMy wrote: post #10

I am an American high school senior and can say confidently that most American students are screwed over pretty extensively when it comes to the software they are forced to use. I have several classes that require the use of proprietary software such as Google classroom, Microsoft silver light, and Adobe flash. On top of that I cannot even remember the last time I was given a document that wasn't a .docx. It would be…

Good for you! I did similar stuff in school -- although I think my situation was easier, because even in the late 2000s, tablets/laptops weren't ubiquitous, and the school had to accept paper-based submissions for things.

Good luck with your college.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#50

Post by ethbro » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 3:41 PM UTC

profeta wrote: post #32

pdkl95 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From PBS Frontline's "United States Of Secrets" (part 2): LIZ FIGUEROA, (D) State Senator, CA, 1998-06: We walk into this room, and it’s myself and two of my staff— my chief of staff and one of my attorneys. And across from us was Larry, Sergey, and their attorney. All of a sudden, Sergey started talking to me. He said, “Senator, how would you feel if a robot went into your home and read your diary and read your fina…

Senator, if i was spending billions on robots to go to people homes and read their diaries and then explode before leaving, would you think there was some ulterior motive on me building those robots?

Or even more reasonably, if I were spending billions on such robots and they became a pervasive part of society, such that every family had such a robot regularly visiting their house and their daily routine was dependant on such robots...

Coupled with the fact that the function of said robots could be changed with a code push...

Doesn't that create an incredible opportunity for monetization and therefore risk for future abuse?

Just because we could provide a perfect search result to any query if we knew everything about a person (including their current thoughts) doesn't make enacting that a reasonable or good idea.