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Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

googleforeducation.blogspot.com

21–30 of 68 posts

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#21
post #12

I am an American high school senior and can say confidently that most American students are screwed over pretty extensively when it comes to the software they are forced to use. I have several classes that require the use of proprietary software such as Google classroom, Microsoft silver light, and Adobe flash. On top of that I cannot even remember the last time I was given a document that wasn't a .docx. It would be…

Won't the university have similar requirements? Society is living with compromises. If you want everyone to switch to open source software make it better than the alternatives, they won't switch because of any other reason.

That's a good point, but an issue I will have to face when that time comes. Being accepted into school isn't a solution to my problem with the public education system, but a temporary out.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#22
post #3

Google: > There are no ads in these Core Services, and student data in these services is not used for advertising purposes. This isn't in the original EFF complaint, EFF specifically says (at least in the press release [1]) that Google doesn't advertise: EFF: >This allows Google to track, store on its servers, and data mine for non-advertising purposes Google then says: >In addition, our systems compile data aggregat…

>a legally enforceable document whereby companies promise to refrain from collecting, using, or sharing students’ personal information

>This is not connected to any specific person

How can data not connected to any specific person be considered personal information? I mean what's bad here, the fact they collect it and then scrap the personal information? Or the fear they probably don't?

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#23
post #3

Google: > There are no ads in these Core Services, and student data in these services is not used for advertising purposes. This isn't in the original EFF complaint, EFF specifically says (at least in the press release [1]) that Google doesn't advertise: EFF: >This allows Google to track, store on its servers, and data mine for non-advertising purposes Google then says: >In addition, our systems compile data aggregat…

>a legally enforceable document whereby companies promise to refrain from collecting, using, or sharing students’ personal information >This is not connected to any specific person How can data not connected to any specific person be considered personal information? I mean what's bad here, the fact they collect it and then scrap the personal information? Or the fear they probably don't?

So you think that if law enforcement (from any country) knocks on Google's door, they will say "sorry, we can't provide that individual's data, because we collected it in aggregate"?

Of course not. Google still has that individual's data and can personally identify him. It's just their policy not to use that data when using machine learning and whatnot to get a result out of it.

Also, such "anonymized data" is never really anonymous, until Google starts using something like homomorphic enryption or client-side encrypted databases:

De Montjoye and colleagues examined three months of credit card transactions for 1.1 million people, all of which had been scrubbed of any PII. Still, 90% of the time he managed to identify individuals in the dataset using the date and location of just four of their transactions. By adding knowledge of the price of the transactions, he increased “reidentification” (the academic term for spotting an individual in anonymized data) to 94%. Additionally, women were easier to reidentify than men, and reidentification ability increased with income of the consumer.

https://hbr.org/2015/02/theres-no-such-thing-as-anonymous-da...

The problem is that Google gets that data in the first place and stores it - indefinitely. If someone hacks Google it could also get that data. And what's worse, instead of making it a company priority to "fix" this, it doesn't seem to care very much, even when the solutions could be within reach with a little more R&D:

Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. “They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services,” he joked.

http://www.wired.com/2013/10/computers-big-data/

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#24
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't the university have similar requirements? Society is living with compromises. If you want everyone to switch to open source software make it better than the alternatives, they won't switch because of any other reason.

My university was interesting; you could get a computer degree with the Engineering department or with the Math/CS department, and their IT policies were polar opposites. Engineering was 99% Windows/MATLAB/Visual Studio/you name it. CS was 99% Linux/GCC/CUPS/etc. If you were on the wrong platform you had a hell of a time submitting assignments. (CS students on Windows found their C programs would run fine on their la…

So, supposedly educated young persons couldn't even "Save as..." and choose a free format when saving the documents? That's not a software problem...

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't the university have similar requirements? Society is living with compromises. If you want everyone to switch to open source software make it better than the alternatives, they won't switch because of any other reason.

It is already is better..... Proprietary tools sustain because of better marketing, and legacy costs (retaining staff to do things in a different way) Often when people talk about open source "not being as good" what they really mean is "not being the exact same" if a button is in a different spot or something is named differently that is perceived as being "worse" because for the most part people hate change.

Well, Google Classroom and GAFE is new, so no legacy costs. So what's the equivalent open source solution that's as good and easy to set up?

GAFE requires a dns change, and optionally syncing your directory with them, and has a modern interface for the admin user. So to be easier I'd probably want a debian package, or a virtual machine image.

If someone would package a virtual machine image that interfaced with common directories, provided web office tools, and a version of Classroom (which doesn't have many features), for free, it would probably have some traction, not needing to rely on the internet connection at school to be stable.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#26
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My university was interesting; you could get a computer degree with the Engineering department or with the Math/CS department, and their IT policies were polar opposites. Engineering was 99% Windows/MATLAB/Visual Studio/you name it. CS was 99% Linux/GCC/CUPS/etc. If you were on the wrong platform you had a hell of a time submitting assignments. (CS students on Windows found their C programs would run fine on their la…

So, supposedly educated young persons couldn't even "Save as..." and choose a free format when saving the documents? That's not a software problem...

And having a copy in a free format helps with submitting a correctly formatted .docx how?

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#27
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already is better..... Proprietary tools sustain because of better marketing, and legacy costs (retaining staff to do things in a different way) Often when people talk about open source "not being as good" what they really mean is "not being the exact same" if a button is in a different spot or something is named differently that is perceived as being "worse" because for the most part people hate change.

Well, Google Classroom and GAFE is new, so no legacy costs. So what's the equivalent open source solution that's as good and easy to set up? GAFE requires a dns change, and optionally syncing your directory with them, and has a modern interface for the admin user. So to be easier I'd probably want a debian package, or a virtual machine image. If someone would package a virtual machine image that interfaced with commo…

GAFE requires a dns change, and optionally syncing your directory with them, and has a modern interface for the admin user. So to be easier I'd probably want a debian package, or a virtual machine image.

I think it wouldn't be hard to provide a virtual machine image that provides similar functionality to Google Apps (at least e-mail, storage, calendaring, and address books). Educational institutes switch to GAFE because it cuts away a lot of sysadmin salaries. You do not have to worry about getting your SMTP server whitelisted when a student/employee falls for phishing, ensure redundancy, scale up the architecture as users have more data, replace malfunctioning servers, etc.

Of course, Google's competition to an open source solution is not really fair. First of all, Google can benefit the economy of scale. Secondly, Google is large enough to assume the cost in trade for future income (get them hooked or locked in). Thirdly, Google can to use the data indefinitely to some extend for their own use (e.g. training models).

An open source solution can only win over GAFE (or perhaps Office 365) when a principled choice is made to protect the privacy of students and employees.

tl;dr: it is hard to compete with free.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#28
Man, how far Google as fallen. Reading that corporate press release made me feel embarrassed and uncomfortable for all the people who had (unwisely) trusted Google over the years.

Maybe they are not (currently) using the data in the very legalese-specific way that they have claimed. But, there's no doubt that they will build unrelated products using that data to make their owners gazillions. That's fine, you say - we're all here to make money, right? But, imagine that you're tracked, monitored, and experimented on 24/7 throughout your childhood. When you're 20, will you be surprised when Google's AI will understand every intention, desire of you and be able to recognize every nuance of your actions and behavior? To me, that's scary.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a legally enforceable document whereby companies promise to refrain from collecting, using, or sharing students’ personal information >This is not connected to any specific person How can data not connected to any specific person be considered personal information? I mean what's bad here, the fact they collect it and then scrap the personal information? Or the fear they probably don't?

So you think that if law enforcement (from any country) knocks on Google's door, they will say "sorry, we can't provide that individual's data, because we collected it in aggregate "? Of course not. Google still has that individual's data and can personally identify him. It's just their policy not to use that data when using machine learning and whatnot to get a result out of it. Also, such "anonymized data" is never…

> It's just their policy not to use that data when using machine learning and whatnot to get a result out of it.

So Google is like a child that wants to eat candy, has candy, but doesn't eat it?

Of course they're using all the data they can, to the extent they can.

They're just telling us there's no reason to worry, while they feed their data to the NSA's surveillance machinery etc.

You see, Google is not the only "child with candy". Then there's the US government, and that kid has a ravenous appetite.

Re: Response to EFF complaint about student data privacy

#30
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I get the impression that data aggregation&analysis is so deeply ingrained in Google company culture that it's entirely possible the responsible people truly believes nothing went wrong here.

From PBS Frontline's "United States Of Secrets" (part 2): LIZ FIGUEROA, (D) State Senator, CA, 1998-06: We walk into this room, and it’s myself and two of my staff— my chief of staff and one of my attorneys. And across from us was Larry, Sergey, and their attorney. All of a sudden, Sergey started talking to me. He said, “Senator, how would you feel if a robot went into your home and read your diary and read your fina…

Google makes NSA look good.
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