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Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

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Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#201
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless of what extent the government does reflect the will of society, you still have the issue that we currently do have a system of personal property rights. We have a system of personal property rights in which personal property is subject to taxation, both ad valorem taxation of wealth (usually, in practice, certain classes of assets are targeted for this, but there is no systemic prohibition in our system…

You are again conflating that society is synonymous with the state.

So you're argument is not that individuals don't owe a debt to society for facilitating the creation of wealth, but that the state functions poorly as a proxy for society?

If that is the case, what would function as a better proxy through which society can collect its debt?

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you believe that society isn't entitled to a share of your money No. When money is earned, that money is taxed. Society has gotten its share. Zuckerberg is talking about donating assets that represent money in lieu of keeping it himself, which are above and beyond whatever income taxes he's already paid. If the argument is that he isn't paying taxes on the money he never had, that seems a little odd to me, but even…

>No. When money is earned, that money is taxed. Society has gotten its share. So income tax is the only just form of taxation? What about consumption tax? Property tax? > Zuckerberg is talking about donating assets that represent money in lieu of keeping it himself, which are above and beyond whatever income taxes he's already paid. Are you saying he's donating after tax income? Or are you saying that it's like he ne…

> So income tax is the only just form of taxation? What about consumption tax? Property tax?

I didn't specify income tax, but 'earned'. This would include a variety of taxes, including capital gains, income, etc. To be fair to the situation, this type of donation would likely trigger capital gains, but if the foundation set up is a 501c3, then they would be (possibly?) exempt -- as it seems to be an LLC, there doesn't seem to be a tax dodge here at all.

FWIW, I wasn't disputing whether any taxes were just or not; rather, disputing the notion that society is being robbed as a result of non-taxed earnings being withheld. As society has determined that is kosher, then there is no theft.

Personally, I consider income tax to be one of the least just forms of taxes, but that did not bear on my argument at all.

> Are you saying he's donating after tax income? Or are you saying that it's like he never had income in the first place because he donated it before it became income?

To be honest, it's still a bit ambiguous. If he's holding shares for now, he's paying capital gains on the shares that he holds -- to my knowledge, there's no way to earmark that money for charitable tax exemption without actually donating it, and in the short term, Zuck has stated that he won't be giving it all away immediately. Either way, if we accept the premises that society has chosen tax exemption for charitable contributions is something that society wants, and that he's paying taxes on his current earnings until he gives those shares/moneys away, he isn't robbing anyone of anything.

> I was arguing against the OP's example of taxation as theft, not against the possibility of charitable giving tax deductions.

I won't go as far as to say that taxation is theft, but as I alluded to earlier, I lean that way on income tax. Regardless, I don't think that's really the point of the argument here. Regardless of whether or not tax is theft, Zuck is still paying his taxes. Any portion of income or potential income he gives away to charity is not theft from society because society has stated it hasn't via tax code.

In the counter-hypothetical that guntar made though, wherein Zuckerberg pays the full taxes owed on his earnings and incomes, and yet is still not entitled to do what he wants with his post-tax money, hence the state must be entitled to it? That would definitely be theft, in my opinion.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#203
post #86

The trade is this: if you made $100 and your marginal tax rate is 20%, you can either (a) let the government spend $20 however it sees fit and you spend $80 however you see fit (which may be an $80 bottle of wine); or (b) you spend $100 on any charitable cause you see fit (which must meet certain requirements). That doesn't seem like a bad trade to me, especially since rich people have fairly low marginal tax rates.

And that’s how the US ends up with horrible roads, transit quality going down, and so on.

Terrible roads seem far too local of a problem to be due to philanthropic billionaires diverting wealth. Quality seems to vary distinctly by county or city; I once lived near a city line where the line was demarcated by the abrupt transition from flawless asphalt to a minefield of potholes. Neither was a particularly famous, wealthy, or powerful county, and neither had resident billionaires.

No, I'm more suspicious of measures like California's Prop 13, as well as county and city level management.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does federalism solve the problem?

Assuming that "federalism" means what I think it means (federation of independent entities, delegating economy-of-scale responsibilities like war and diplomacy to the center while keeping everything else for themselves), my guess would be this: that it ensures that government operates on a local level, where the number of people represented by a given legislature is smaller -- so individual votes have more impact and…

It's odd that you say "federalism is a non-starter for the US at the present day," since that is exactly the system we have in the United States. Individual states are responsible for much (most?) of the government of their citizens, while the Federal Government takes care of higher-level tasks like war, as you mentioned.

it's in the constitution, the 10th amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said that having a few very wealthy people decide what were the most important causes was bad compared to having the democratically elected government decide. This sentence is really amusing to me, because our democratically elected government, at least at the congressional level, is nearly all wealthy millionaires. So either way, important causes are decided by the wealthy.

Congressmen are mostly rich people rented by richer ones, but a small amount of plebian influence is surely better than none at all if you're into that whole "democracy" thing.

I've always wondered why more people aren't demanding direct democracy. I know why the founders of the US didn't go for it, but as a working class American I fail to see why I don't want direct democracy.

It would slow the pace of government doing stuff down and if someone got bribed, it would be me.

And even if we did wrong, at least we'd truly be responsible. And screwing things up is kind of our birthright.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#206
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regardless of what extent the government does reflect the will of society, you still have the issue that we currently do have a system of personal property rights. We have a system of personal property rights in which personal property is subject to taxation, both ad valorem taxation of wealth (usually, in practice, certain classes of assets are targeted for this, but there is no systemic prohibition in our system…

You are again conflating that society is synonymous with the state.

> You are again conflating that society is synonymous with the state

The state is simply the name given to whatever aspect of a bounded society the society itself recognizes as governing it.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#207
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are again conflating that society is synonymous with the state.

So you're argument is not that individuals don't owe a debt to society for facilitating the creation of wealth, but that the state functions poorly as a proxy for society? If that is the case, what would function as a better proxy through which society can collect its debt?

I suppose you would have to expound on what is meant by "facilitating the creation of wealth" for me to answer that question.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#208
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s how the US ends up with horrible roads, transit quality going down, and so on.

Terrible roads seem far too local of a problem to be due to philanthropic billionaires diverting wealth. Quality seems to vary distinctly by county or city; I once lived near a city line where the line was demarcated by the abrupt transition from flawless asphalt to a minefield of potholes. Neither was a particularly famous, wealthy, or powerful county, and neither had resident billionaires. No, I'm more suspicious o…

Well, tax loopholes in general lead to less taxes. Which leads to budget cuts.

For example, look what happened in the UK: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/11/david-c...

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said that having a few very wealthy people decide what were the most important causes was bad compared to having the democratically elected government decide. This sentence is really amusing to me, because our democratically elected government, at least at the congressional level, is nearly all wealthy millionaires. So either way, important causes are decided by the wealthy.

That's pretty misleading. The median net worth of a member of Congress is about $1 million: http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2014/01/millionaires-club-fo... . You also have to take into account that the average age of Congress is almost 60. I.e. they have been working and accumulating assets for decades. Adjusted for age, the net worth of the median Congressman is at the 80th percentile: http://www.census.gov/people/w…

Yes, being a millionaire politician or doctor makes you wealthy.
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