Live data from Hacker News

Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

washingtonpost.com

191–200 of 225 posts

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well does that representation actually fulfill the wishes of their constituency as a whole, let alone any individual voter? That's the point - by being representative with no accountability, there's only the binary ability to hire or fire with no ability to manage.

How well does that representation actually fulfill the wishes of their constituency as a whole, let alone any individual voter? Yeah yeah yeah, being cynical about democracy is cool, blah blah blah. I suppose you should, what, just burn the motherf*cker down and be done with it, then? You know, in 50 years the GOP will be able to look back and point to one of their most brilliant victories of all time: actively sabot…

>"Starve-the-beast" neocon tactics taken to a whole new level.

I'm not sure you know what a "neocon" is. Neocons derived from Trotskyism and are found in both major U.S. political parties. Neoconservatism has done more to expand government than perhaps any other ideology present in American politics.

>actively sabotaging the activities of government, and then using the results of their very own actions to convince the electorate that government doesn't work and cannot represent them, despite the fact that they got themselves elected into the very system they claim to despise.

Ironically that strategy sounds a lot like a strategy that's been deployed by progressives. If you look at some of the most heavily regulated sectors of the economy--healthcare, banking, housing, wall street, etc--those are the same areas which progressives hold up as free market failures.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#192
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the structure that enabled you to amass that amount of wealth is flawed, and disproportionately rewards "you" over the network that actually did much of the heavy lifting. Nobody is saying they shouldn't be richly rewarded, just that it's gotten fucking ridiculous.

> Because the structure that enabled you to amass that amount of wealth is flawed, and disproportionately rewards "you" over the network that actually did much of the heavy lifting This thinking is so poisonous and destructive and pervasive that I'm starting to wonder if it is either due to some natural law of human nature or some grand conspiracy to destroy modern society. Businesses are not built on the charity of…

> Businesses are not built on the charity of the "system".

Yes, they are; especially when they accept public benefits, for instance, in the form of liability-shielded, government-created business structures, including the corporation, LLC, LLP, LLLP, and similar forms.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#193
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the structure that enabled you to amass that amount of wealth is flawed, and disproportionately rewards "you" over the network that actually did much of the heavy lifting This thinking is so poisonous and destructive and pervasive that I'm starting to wonder if it is either due to some natural law of human nature or some grand conspiracy to destroy modern society. Businesses are not built on the charity of…

I could say the same about your black and white thinking using outdated Chicago/Neoclassic economic theories when applied to aggregate economies, but I digress. I didn't say they were built on the charity of the system, just that they were built using the system. You act like the first 50 employees of your stupid app company aren't taking a risk too. But they get 0.01%, while the founders get...? Fairly early on, you…

> I didn't say they were built on the charity of the system, just that they were built using the system.

So a college kid "uses the system", that system being the college, and by your logic they should be required to donate a certain percentage of their future earnings back to the college they went to because without that system they wouldn't have achieved their success?

That of course would be insanity. The college and the student already agreed upon a price the student should pay for their education, and when they graduate and the bills are paid, everyone is square. Companies within the larger systems in place in our country are no different. They pay money to file with the state, they pay taxes on all their profits, they pay payroll taxes which means they have to compensate their employees higher than they might otherwise, they pay regulation taxes, environmental taxes, etc. But most importantly, they pay people to work, which to me is exactly what they should be doing. By paying people for their labor, companies are paying for the system that provided for those people.

> This toxic thinking that a twentysomething takes more risk by trying to start his own company while early in his career deserves orders of magnitude better compensation for the risk he took, over many career people that will have to be persuaded to risk their career and reputations on this new company, who have families, mortgages, and serious obligations to others?

It sounds so easy from your armchair, doesn't it? When it's not your future on the line. When it's not you that has to bear the full brunt of failure if you don't succeed.

If Zuckerberg hadn't taken the risk to drop out of a highly prestigious school, from which he could have leveraged to land any number of low risk, highly lucrative jobs, to create Facebook, then 10s of thousands of high paying jobs wouldn't exist today. That kind of risk deserves a great reward, and wouldn't you know it, Zuckerberg is every bit as interested in the general welfare of his fellow humans as the rest of us are.

> You act like the first 50 employees of your stupid app company aren't taking a risk too. But they get 0.01%, while the founders get...? Fairly early on, you literally don't have enough time in a day to do it all yourself, even if you wanted to, so you're quite literally taking credit for more risk than you were actually able to take.

They are taking guaranteed salary and benefits and a little bit of equity, too. They understand exactly the amount of risk they took on and if they don't they're incredibly naive. If they were to offer their services for no compensation then they would absolutely deserve more equity. But if they only do so after it's clear the company is well on its way to being successful then how does that represent any risk whatsoever? Where were they when nobody believed in the company and the founders were pumping in their own savings and taking no salary whatsoever? Until you've gone through that, you can't understand what the risk is truly all about.

> Considering Paul Graham's essay about how most of the work is ahead of you even when you start adding employees, how is the risk so skewed towards initial conditions versus the long path ahead?

Sure, most of the work is ahead of you, but that work is done by people who get guaranteed salaries and benefits and who can simply find a new job if the company goes south (with unemployment benefits waiting to soften the blow). People flock to successful companies because they are often too risk-averse to start their own, but just because they do good work doesn't mean they are somehow entitled to the equity of a company, especially if they're receiving industry standard compensation for their efforts.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"wouldn't it be better to have all this power be in the hands of the democratically chosen" This assumes the money in question belongs to the state to begin with, and we're merely deciding how it is to be allocated. That is not the case. This is not the rich deciding what to do with the public money, it's the rich deciding what to do with their own money. I think we would all agree, regardless of level of income, we…

The money does belong to the state. Examine the front and back of any bill. Where do you think Federal Reserve Notes come from?

The money was issued by the state; the wealth that it measures was not. Money is a store of value; it isn't value per se.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#195

I'm curious why this dropped completely off the home page? Do posts get nixed by mods? If so, why this one? [I don't really care, just curious about the HN moderation process]

I'd appreciate if Dan would chime in, but I think it likely triggered the "Flamewar Detector". I think this is based on a ratio of Upvotes to Comments, possibly adjusted by flags, but I don't think it's been fully described.

This isn't a perfect system, as sometimes contentious conversation can be better than non-discussion. But overall it's probably a good to have a temporary throttle until a moderator can make finer grained fixes.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#196
post #81

> I find the US initiative highly problematic. You can write donations off in your taxes to a large degree in the USA. So the rich make a choice: Would I rather donate or pay taxes? The donors are taking the place of the state. That's unacceptable. Or flip that around - is Krämer's implied solution not a case of the state taking the place of the individual? Put another way, if you founded a company, created thousands…

No single man should wield so much power. That's part of the foundation of modern democracy -- we don't want any single person having unchecked power to do as he or she wants. Krämer's solution is the state taking the place of the individual, as intended in the democratic model. Otherwise you have an effective monarchy, with the only difference that power isn't only inherited, but can be acquired via mercantile means…

No single man should wield so much power

They don't. Only the state can legally pull a gun on you and force you to do things or go to jail.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#197
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this argument expressed several times on HN and I find it quite puzzling. To paraphrase the argument goes something like: "Society giveth and society taketh away" Implied in the argument is that the state is synonymous with society. Even in a democratic society you have the issue that a) a limited percentage of the population actually vote and b) of those who vote a minority did not get what they wanted.…

> Regardless of what extent the government does reflect the will of society, you still have the issue that we currently do have a system of personal property rights. We have a system of personal property rights in which personal property is subject to taxation, both ad valorem taxation of wealth (usually, in practice, certain classes of assets are targeted for this, but there is no systemic prohibition in our system…

You are again conflating that society is synonymous with the state.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#198
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The taxation as theft argument implies that you believe that society (through the state) isn't entitled to a share of your money as payment for providing the system that allows you to become rich in the first place. Without the infrastructure provided by society as a whole, no large business would be possible.

> you believe that society isn't entitled to a share of your money No. When money is earned, that money is taxed. Society has gotten its share. Zuckerberg is talking about donating assets that represent money in lieu of keeping it himself, which are above and beyond whatever income taxes he's already paid. If the argument is that he isn't paying taxes on the money he never had, that seems a little odd to me, but even…

>No. When money is earned, that money is taxed. Society has gotten its share.

So income tax is the only just form of taxation? What about consumption tax? Property tax?

> Zuckerberg is talking about donating assets that represent money in lieu of keeping it himself, which are above and beyond whatever income taxes he's already paid.

Are you saying he's donating after tax income? Or are you saying that it's like he never had income in the first place because he donated it before it became income?

>even if we accept that he should owe those taxes to society, then we have to reconcile that notion with the idea that society has chosen those charities to be considered tax exempt, and has effectively rubber stamped charitable donations as a societal good.

That's true and I'm OK with that. I was arguing against the OP's example of taxation as theft, not against the possibility of charitable giving tax deductions.

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#199
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The taxation as theft argument implies that you believe that society (through the state) isn't entitled to a share of your money as payment for providing the system that allows you to become rich in the first place. Without the infrastructure provided by society as a whole, no large business would be possible.

And without the production of the individuals and businesses that exist in a society, the state would have no ability to skim off the top and spend that money. I believe that the state (which isn't "society", it is the governing body of a region of land), has no right to a share of anything that is not voluntarily granted or contractually agreed upon. Believing in a higher entity with more rights than any individual…

>And without the production of the individuals and businesses that exist in a society, the state would have no ability to skim off the top and spend that money.

Yes, because organizations are just collections of individuals. So of course an organization can't do anything without the action of individuals. Is anyone arguing otherwise?

> Believing in a higher entity with more rights than any individual is verging on something akin to feudalism.

There are many examples where groups of individuals have rights that are greater than the rights of individuals without bringing up feudalism.

No individual has the right to imprison another (for long periods at least). No individual has the right to use violence to enforce a contract. Do you imagine a society where individuals have those rights, or one where the state does not?

>which isn't "society", it is the governing body of a region of land)

No the state isn't society. In a democratically controlled system, the state is the proxy designated to act on behalf of society (the extent to which states actually fulfill this duty is highly variable).

Re: Why a German billionaire says that pledges like Mark Zuckerberg’s are really bad

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like Zuckerberg's donation in Newark happened in a vacuum. It happened in tight collaboration with the school system, who stated needs and approved every step of the process. It's not like Zuckerberg stepped in and said "you shall obey!!!" Course in this case it just turned out that not only could the democratically elected government of Newark magically waste all their tax revenue, they were excell…

You claim this donation was made in "tight collaboration with the school system," yet, CNBC and The New Yorker say that "One of the criticisms of Newark's school reform has been the lack of input from the community." [0] These seem to be opposite view points. Do you have a source for that claim? Or perhaps you were saying something else? [0]: http://www.cnbc.com/2014/05/23/where-zuckerbergs-100-million...

The school system and the community are not the same body. The community is all the people who live there. The school system is the administrators, teachers, & bureaucrats that run the schools.
Post reply on HN