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Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

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Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#121
post #20
post #2

A phased-in revenue-neutral carbon tax of $30/ton would increase electricity rates in (most of) the US by < 10%. And could lower income taxes (or if not revenue neutral) reduce the debt. What's not to like?

The fact that a 10% increase in electricity costs is probably going disproportionately affect the poor?

One of the fun things about this "debate" is that people complain about exactly the things in the proposal that are designed to benefit the poor, as affected by this tax. It's almost as if everyone assumes the worst possible implementation, instead of looking at the actual proposal.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#122
post #12
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's revenue neutral and lowering income taxes, where would the big `victims' be?

The answer used to be "aluminum smelters" (aluminum, aka "frozen electricity"). Interestingly, the aluminum smelters in the mountains behind Portland closed down when the datacenters moved in and bought all the cheap hydro electricity they used to use. My guess is that a tax increase on electricity will hit the Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft and other "cloud businesses" pretty hard...

Microsoft already implements an internal carbon tax, so those sectors of Microsoft are already paying some amount for this.

I think they spend the money raised on efficiency and sourcing clean energy.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your barber is an expert on hair.

I haven't seen anything to suggest he is an expert in macro-economic forecast modelling. Just because I know how to use a command line doesn't equate to me being an expert in running an IT company. It's not the best analogy but Musk is pretty far removed from what most economists actually do.

Yes, though on this particular matter he's just agreeing with what has been the consensus amongst economists for a long time.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#124

Elon might want to investigate the issue he's talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQqPQ0i_fl0 >> Don't you hate when Fox News and the other MSM spin-meisters use simple tricks to skew and misrepresent data and statistics? How about when the World Meteorological Organization does it? Or NASA? Or the Journal of Climate? Or GISS? Join James for today's thought for the day as he shows you some of the grade sch…

His quibble with the bar graphs there doesn't make a lot of sense given that a Y-axis starting at 0 degrees is just as arbitrary as starting it at 13.4 degrees.

The point was that starting the Y-axis "suitably high" makes it look like the relative differences in the values are greater than they actually are.

In this case, it was done to make "climate change" look like a vastly bigger problem than it actually is.

It wasn't just "his quibble" - it's a very real problem with the way the (actual non-)issue is presented to the masses.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#126
post #76
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't there significant carbon emissions released during the production of a Tesla car and its components?

The benefit of a carbon tax is that no one has to calculate whether the lifetime vs production CO2 cost is greater; it shows up in the prices of either.

The downside of carbon tax is that it harms developing nations and the poor the most.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the choice is between people having electricity and clean, running water in India, or corals dying out, it isn't moral to choose the corals. Human lives matter.

We don't need to choose between these, it's developed world lifestyles that are causing the problem, not basic hygiene in the developing world.

A carbon tax will non proportionally harm developing nations and the poor in all nations. Why would Tanzania have to pay more for fuel because it has 55 yr old power plants that pollute much more than France's shiny new ones? The agricultural industry is responsible for 30% of emissions, if we talk about food in general including transport, processing, manufacturing and distribution then 50-60% of our carbon emissions come from feeding us. A carbon tax can increase food prices worldwide by 3-400% and the poorer you are and the more the food has to travel the more expensive it will be which again puts many developing nations at a disadvantage.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#128
post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

Agreed. Musk is probably right about the carbon tax, but unfortunately a conflict of interests this severe should cause most folks to put his energy essays into the "worth thinking about" pile.

I feel the same way every time he talks about colonizing Mars. Oh, the guy with the rocket company thinks we ought to dump 100 trillion dollars into settling another planet? You don't say...

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#129

I used to think that carbon taxes were the way to go, but I have seen how effective the fossil fuel industry is at creating FUD. When you consider an effective carbon tax makes all their assets worthless it is not surprising that they will do whatever it takes to block anything other than a nominal carbon tax. There really is only one way to get past the fossil fuel industry and that is to buy them out. Given the ben…

Notably, all the European oil and gas companies have been calling for a carbon tax for a while now.

I assume part of this is because their gas would compete very well against coal. The reason for the US oil and gas corporations not joining them was the strength of the coal lobby in the US.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#130
post #19

Oh cool, a billionaire pushing a tax that will hurt the poor while he gets to make money helping millionaires avoid it.

Well, forcing gas to be cheaper had some unintended side effects in Venezuela: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873240007045783867... Anyway, I don't see how such a tax would single out the poor more than others. The negative externalities of burning gas to move cars (not to mention weed whackers and lawnmowers etc., which are somehow exempt from emissions controls and pollute horribly) need to be accounted…

The poor spend a considerably larger portion of their income on food, heating, and transportation which will be the 3 areas that suffer the most by a generic carbon tax. The food and agricultural industries represent most of our carbon emission as it is which will increase food prices.

The poor would more likely to live in housing with inefficient heating burning either fossil fuel or using electric heating, and the poor are more likely to have to commute longer distances and are more likely to be dependent on both older vehicles and vehicles such as trucks and van which produce more carbon than newer efficient cars.

This discrepancy will affect both the poor people in the developed world and developing nation that cannot afford the latest and greatest in new technologies, you won't be driving a Prius in central Africa you'll be driving a jeep from the 1980's.

A flat carbon tax is very similar to VAT which is well known to affect lower income families considerably more than higher income ones which is why countries which use a VAT system rather than sales tax often exempt certain products such as food from it or tax it at a lower rate. When you spend most of your money on consumables or products which will be used to the point of not being able to be resold you are effectively bearing a more burden than those who spend a much smaller portion of their income on consumables and buy products which hold their value well as VAT is designed to capture the value of any potential future resells unlike a direct sales tax which only taxes a single point of sale.

And if we make the carbon tax either deferential or tradeable (e.g. the old carbon caps) it will only result in developing nations being exploited further, if you can buy a nations carbon cap cheaply you'll do so, if the carbon tax in that nation is only pennies on the dollar compared to yours then you'll move your factories there and pollute at will because that would be the economical way to do business.

There isn't a simple solution and while carbon tax is the easiest there's a good reason why allot of economists fear it even more than they fear global warming.

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