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Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

fortune.com

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Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#21

Post by serge2k »

diamondtrim wrote: post #7
eru wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's revenue neutral and lowering income taxes, where would the big `victims' be?

As usual, probably the poor & lower middle class unless the income tax reduction were explicitly directed to the lowest tax brackets to limit impact on working poor. Those below the poverty line would see an increase in their energy costs at the pump and and home electric bills as energy producers raise rates to compensate (and the impoverished are the least able to convert their use, so will be the longest affected…

You could do a credit back from the proceeds.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#22

Post by lectrick »

jdc wrote: post #18
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

Aren't there significant carbon emissions released during the production of a Tesla car and its components?

It only needs to release less than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Comparing it to "zero" is unfair.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#23

Post by wskinner »

karmacondon wrote: post #17

> "This approach already occurs, Musk said, citing how taxes are higher on cigarettes and alcohol than fruits and vegetables" This is a good point, but generally discouraging the use of cigarettes or alcohol through taxation only effects people who consume those products. If you raise the tax on carbon, that cost could be passed on by businesses in unexpected ways. If the cost of me shipping vegetables across the cou…

This is simply a consequence of how prices communicate information through the market, and is the whole point. End-consumers should pay more for things that have a (direct or indirect) carbon footprint. Otherwise why would they change their behavior?

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#24

Post by falsestprophet »

argonaut wrote: post #16
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

It would help Tesla and SolarCity, but hurt SpaceX.

A Falcon 9 rocket launch costs $61,200,000. Propellant costs $200,000.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#25

Post by samcheng »

jdc wrote: post #18
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

Aren't there significant carbon emissions released during the production of a Tesla car and its components?

After accounting for emissions during manufacturing, even if you powered an electric car with coal power only, carbon emissions of an electric car are roughly a 25-30 MPG car equivalent.

However, those numbers get much better as the electric power generation mix improves (at both the car factory and your garage). In California, now, an electric car is about equivalent to a 70 MPG car.

Note that significant efforts are underway to reduce the carbon-intensiveness of our electricity generation, so these numbers will get better over time.

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#26

Post by jowiar »

karmacondon wrote: post #17

> "This approach already occurs, Musk said, citing how taxes are higher on cigarettes and alcohol than fruits and vegetables" This is a good point, but generally discouraging the use of cigarettes or alcohol through taxation only effects people who consume those products. If you raise the tax on carbon, that cost could be passed on by businesses in unexpected ways. If the cost of me shipping vegetables across the cou…

It's absolutely covered by "revenue neutral".

We tax things, but then distribute the tax revenue among the citizenry. The cost absolutely will get passed on, but that is accounted for in the end when you receive a check for ~1/300,000,000th of the net tax paid. The increased cost of essentials would be a total wash, as presumably everyone is paying roughly the same -- except to the extent that by pricing the externality, there might be space to undercut the market with a non-polluting option where one didn't exist before, encouraging R&D.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#27

Post by lectrick »

serge2k wrote: post #19

Oh cool, a billionaire pushing a tax that will hurt the poor while he gets to make money helping millionaires avoid it.

Well, forcing gas to be cheaper had some unintended side effects in Venezuela:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241278873240007045783867...

Anyway, I don't see how such a tax would single out the poor more than others.

The negative externalities of burning gas to move cars (not to mention weed whackers and lawnmowers etc., which are somehow exempt from emissions controls and pollute horribly) need to be accounted for somehow. See: The tragedy of the commons.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#28

Post by hawkice »

jdc wrote: post #18
valvar wrote: post #4

Not that I disagree (in fact I strongly agree), but is Musk really the person we should be taking this from? It's a bit like taking investment advice from your bank, meseems. Not necessarily a bad idea, but you might want to hear with people who don't have an active interest in the placement of your money first.

Aren't there significant carbon emissions released during the production of a Tesla car and its components?

It's hard to imagine any process that doesn't have some interaction with carbon-based fuel. So while he is willing to pay the cost along with everyone else, the conflict of interest is still there -- his company will benefit _at the margin_ with a much higher carbon tax, so there's an extent to which he might be talking his book.

That all being said, as a matter of simple fact I think he's correct with only relatively straight-forward caveats (like, "within the lifespan of currently alive humans"). So the issue isn't him talking his book per se as it is him attempting to set the public agenda in a way favorable to him. This isn't something I typically worry about, although given how totally non-surprising the headline is to anyone who has paid attention to energy policy in the last couple decades, it might be worth bringing up.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#30

Post by danieltillett »

I used to think that carbon taxes were the way to go, but I have seen how effective the fossil fuel industry is at creating FUD. When you consider an effective carbon tax makes all their assets worthless it is not surprising that they will do whatever it takes to block anything other than a nominal carbon tax.

There really is only one way to get past the fossil fuel industry and that is to buy them out. Given the benefit from stopping global warming is spread over the whole community it is actually fairer if we did this rather than push a disproportionally share onto the owners of fossil fuel. Lets get serious and just pay off Exxon and their buddies.

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