I very much understand the frustration on display here about the setback to science from this decision. But (admitting up front that I don't know a lot about the specific cultural context) I'm surprised by the lack of sympathy being shown for the people who evidently hold this space sacred. All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact that this fits really well into the age-old pattern o…
Are you being intentionally ironic by bringing up Mount Rushmore? http://www.economist.com/node/11848993
Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
41–50 of 53 posts
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production. It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been unde…
I don't disagree with your overall sentiment here; this is disappointing. But if all this is true, then there's been real failures of risk analysis and over-specialization to a particular site. They should have a backup plan, considering how contentious this issue has been all the while. In particular there should be some adaptations that can be made to the main designs that, though not optimal, could make it feasibl…
The problem is not that the telescope wouldn't work anywhere else but that it's really too late in the day to be making such changes. A change in site will set the telescope back about 5 or more years, they will have to start site selection again because their other location choice is now taken by another telescope. All the other sites surveyed were in Hawaii. There is nowhere else in the US of this quality. A new site will also likely cost much more as few are developed. So the telescope will lose at least 5 years on it's competitors and all the cost of starting again and keeping everyone employed 5 more years. It may well miss out on key work in that time, it will probably loose the ability to do joint observations with the James Webb Space Telescope.
So even if it moved it will come much later than the larger European telescope and may have to be scaled back in performance after all the cash it will waste in the site swap. It may loose out on some early science or some science cases altogether if downsized. The real problem is it may not survive the change. Some countries currently signed up will decide to withdraw and back other projects which can be delivered on time. It may be that the cost of the change is large and too many people leave to continue the project. That is not some hypothetical, projects like this which lose momentum often fail. More money could be found but that's unlikely.
If it cannot be built here the whole project is seriously at risk and it will sacrifice science considerably even if it does survive.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#43Responsible adults need to step into the room and get this telescope built. Tribal voodoo about sacred dirt has no place in modern society. The indigenous people of Hawaii are just citizens, and while they get a say proportional to their numbers, they can and should be outvoted by reasonable people committed to scientific progress. They should get no special privilege to block scientific research because of their anc…
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#44Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#45Responsible adults need to step into the room and get this telescope built. Tribal voodoo about sacred dirt has no place in modern society. The indigenous people of Hawaii are just citizens, and while they get a say proportional to their numbers, they can and should be outvoted by reasonable people committed to scientific progress. They should get no special privilege to block scientific research because of their anc…
Your reply ignores international law and international human rights agreements.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't disagree with your overall sentiment here; this is disappointing. But if all this is true, then there's been real failures of risk analysis and over-specialization to a particular site. They should have a backup plan, considering how contentious this issue has been all the while. In particular there should be some adaptations that can be made to the main designs that, though not optimal, could make it feasibl…
For a start the telescope isn't actually that specialised, while the facility structure will have been designed for MKs typical wind patterns little else is site specific and it could be changed. Metal hasn't been cut yet. No survey strategy exists, it's too early for that. The problem is not that the telescope wouldn't work anywhere else but that it's really too late in the day to be making such changes. A change in…
Preliminary work on pipelines relating to the optics, PSFs, band throughputs, etc are simulated with Mauna Kea in mind.
Then that affects the possible science cases. And "survey strategy" at this point would mean allocation of time to contributors which is based on how much money they want to give for their projects by taking those prior simulations into account.
Perhaps the instrument isn't that specialized, but the project kind of is. TMT on Mauna Kea is essentially a completely different telescope from TMT at Apache Point.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
For a start the telescope isn't actually that specialised, while the facility structure will have been designed for MKs typical wind patterns little else is site specific and it could be changed. Metal hasn't been cut yet. No survey strategy exists, it's too early for that. The problem is not that the telescope wouldn't work anywhere else but that it's really too late in the day to be making such changes. A change in…
You're right. I misspoke a bit; I mean all this type of work is Mauna Kea specific: http://www.tmt.org/documents Preliminary work on pipelines relating to the optics, PSFs, band throughputs, etc are simulated with Mauna Kea in mind. Then that affects the possible science cases. And "survey strategy" at this point would mean allocation of time to contributors which is based on how much money they want to give for thei…
TMT at APO would never be built because it's not that good a site. TMT at Armazones would be no different other than the enclosure would be modified for the conditions. Yes it effects the performance and science case slightly but you don't redesign a telescope because of that.
Money is committed on the basis of guaranteed time not on the basis of performance. The money was even committed before the design was finalised. There is no agreement for example over which bodies will receiver dark time and good seeing, those scheduling decisions are far more important in performance.
The telescope is not that specialised.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#48Responsible adults need to step into the room and get this telescope built. Tribal voodoo about sacred dirt has no place in modern society. The indigenous people of Hawaii are just citizens, and while they get a say proportional to their numbers, they can and should be outvoted by reasonable people committed to scientific progress. They should get no special privilege to block scientific research because of their anc…
Your reply ignores international law and international human rights agreements.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
All you have to do is imagine what kind of computer you'd be using if it were left up to the culture in question to develop it. It would probably have wooden beads on wires.
Following that logic we'd all be running around illiterate if we had to wait for Northern Europeans to invent writing. Something tells me you are not going to embrace the idea that your ancestors are just free riding off the great accomplishments of the Iraqis and Egyptians.
It's pretty ironic of you to cite Muslim and Egyptian cultures in defense of your own point. What have they done for us in the last 500 years? How long are they going to "free ride," as you put it?
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're right. I misspoke a bit; I mean all this type of work is Mauna Kea specific: http://www.tmt.org/documents Preliminary work on pipelines relating to the optics, PSFs, band throughputs, etc are simulated with Mauna Kea in mind. Then that affects the possible science cases. And "survey strategy" at this point would mean allocation of time to contributors which is based on how much money they want to give for thei…
They are simulated with MK in mind but that's just using the site parameters. It doesn't affect the design of the telescope only the simulated performance. You don't change your telescope because the site is poorer, it's just not as good. TMT at APO would never be built because it's not that good a site. TMT at Armazones would be no different other than the enclosure would be modified for the conditions. Yes it effec…
Money is committed on the basis of time -- with the expectation that the telescope will be able to deliver the type of science that your institute wants to do -- so an institute doing astroseismology is probably not going to put in money to a spectroscopy project like 4most or weave.
Money is absolutely committed on the basis of expected performance. And part of TMT performance is its location.
I agree physically the telescope is not that specialized. But TMT the project _is_ that specialized.