i mean its not like they are building housing up there or something. at least its for science.
Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
11–20 of 53 posts
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#12This site outlines the actions that tmt takes to improve Hawaii and science education in general... 300 jobs. 26 million per year in revenue. 1 million per year just in paying a lease, 800k of which is earmarked to pay for conservation of the mountain. The site was deliberately moved to a suboptimal location so that it would be less visible to people. Includes a statement regarding this HSC hearing. http://www.maunak…
Just because 'science is good' doesn't mean it gets to trump the normal permitting procedures and rule of law.
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production.
It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been underway with this specific site in mind. There are hundreds of people working on this. Tens to hundreds of thousands of man hours are wasted if this decision stands. PhD work on "site predictions for TMT" "Error estimations for TMT" "Optic Performance for TMT" etc. etc. are worthless.
This isn't a back-yard telescope you just prop up anywhere. This is a precision instrument that was designed for this exact spot. The optics designed Mauna Kea atmospheric seeing; the dome designed for Mauna Kea atmospheric temperature, air pressure and turbulence; the survey strategy planned for Mauna Kea weather patterns and sky visibility.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#13Responsible adults need to step into the room and get this telescope built. Tribal voodoo about sacred dirt has no place in modern society. The indigenous people of Hawaii are just citizens, and while they get a say proportional to their numbers, they can and should be outvoted by reasonable people committed to scientific progress. They should get no special privilege to block scientific research because of their ancestors were or what they did.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just because 'science is good' doesn't mean it gets to trump the normal permitting procedures and rule of law.
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production. It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been unde…
Yes they had the permit but it was issued in violation of apparent rules. Appeals to lost investment and appeals to how great science is don't automatically trump this or do you want to live in a world where one government bureaucrat's wrong decision is set in stone?
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#15> In 2005, a court-ordered environmental impact statement concluded that 30 years of astronomy had had an adverse effect on nature and culture on the mountain.
Wow, really ? It's like reading some document from the Middle-Ages or something.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#16From 1887 on, foreigners have been stealing from the Hawaiians. Now they're trying to steal Mauna Kea, and with all that money in play, broke their own laws to issue a permit. Thankfully, the Hawaiians have succeeded and have stopped yet one more thing - Mauna Kea - being stolen from them. The people against them have the same attitude as a thief - they want it, so they'll do whatever is needed to steal it.
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#17Any astronomers want to weigh in? If the natives are so against it being built, why not build elsewhere?
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#18I very much understand the frustration on display here about the setback to science from this decision. But (admitting up front that I don't know a lot about the specific cultural context) I'm surprised by the lack of sympathy being shown for the people who evidently hold this space sacred.
All the (great!) scientific rationale in the world doesn't change the fact that this fits really well into the age-old pattern of Western societies barging in and imposing their will on other cultures. Pretty much every step of the displacement and marginalization of native peoples in history was seen as perfectly justified by the Western societies carrying it out. Now, personally, I'm much happier with the argument "we must seize this unique scientific opportunity" than with "we must seize these natural resources for a profit". But I expect that from the point of view of the native community, the result feels pretty much the same either way. I'm not happy with the pattern in Western history of condoning this sort of imperialism, and I'd very much like us as a society to quit it.
(And for the record, I can't shake the feeling that if it turned out that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem had turned out to be the ideal site for this telescope, most people would not be so immediately dismissive of the voices raised in opposition to building it there. Heck, I even expect there would be more sympathy if the best place for the telescope were a "secular sacred site" like Mount Rushmore: "Don't make Honest Abe wear a flying saucer for a hat!" the nation would cry, and nobody would accuse them of "tribalism".)
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#19Any astronomers want to weigh in? If the natives are so against it being built, why not build elsewhere?
Maybe because of sunk costs and inherent advantages, maybe because 'the natives' are not a monolith (I live in Hawaii and I have heard overwhelmingly pro-telescope views from people I know), and maybe there are similar interests against development everywhere else too?
Re: Hawaii Court Rescinds Permit to Build Thirty Meter Telescope
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't understand. They haven't been denied a permit, they had the permit. Construction had begun. They were given the go ahead, handshook on a deal with the state of Hawaii-- giving way more than any telescope before. And now, they've been cut off in the middle of full scale production. It's a bit of a sucker punch because, for eight years, survey planning, software programming, building design, etc. have been unde…
Yes they had the permit but it was issued in violation of apparent rules. Appeals to lost investment and appeals to how great science is don't automatically trump this or do you want to live in a world where one government bureaucrat's wrong decision is set in stone?
[deleted]