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Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

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Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#241

Post by datashovel »

simoncion wrote: post #224
datashovel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally respect all of those examples on their merits, but IMO if these are the best examples out there, they all (even aggregated together as a single leak) pale in comparison to Snowden leaks.

1) I'm not sure that I agree with your judgement of the significance of those events. 2) Doesn't it stand to reason that papers that are more significant than those that were previously published are almost certain to be published, given that papers of lesser importance were published?

I wouldn't argue that the events weren't significant. They almost certainly captured just as many headlines as the Snowden leaks have. I'm mostly making a comparison between the information that was leaked.

Stakes are higher when there's more significant information to be published, so I would say it's not necessarily obvious to me that more significant information is more likely to be published.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#242

Post by subsection1h »

pandaman wrote: post #231
hobs wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are dozens of answers to your strawman, here is a simple one: Black people are not responsible for the safety of the citizenry, black people are not defined by the need to protect and serve us, black people are in fact, just people. Cops on the other hand are responsible for the safety of the citizenry, are given special powers due to the additional trust and responsibility we (all the other people) grant…

>The comparison is ridiculous. Indeed. It's very rare for people to call local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs when police breaks into their house. The opposite, though, happens all the time.

The NCAAP, BLM, ACORN, and "other black orgs" break into houses "all the time"? WTF.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#243

Post by jonlucc »

salgernon wrote: post #122
purpled_haze wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do we do about the legions of victims? Financial compensation and putting those that caused the injustice in prison equaling the total of all of the terms served by all of those affected. That is as close to justice as could be had. As for preventing corruption- there's no way to do this as long as there are people that can be corrupted. You can add oversight. You could replace the entire force with minorities…

Which religion? Which denomination of that religion? What if that religion has reprehensible beliefs?

Which religion is devoid of reprehensible beliefs?

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#244

Post by pandaman »

subsection1h wrote: post #242
pandaman wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The comparison is ridiculous. Indeed. It's very rare for people to call local gang/NCAAP/#BLM/ACORN/other black orgs when police breaks into their house. The opposite, though, happens all the time.

The NCAAP, BLM, ACORN, and "other black orgs" break into houses "all the time"? WTF.

BLM certainly does so do gangs. The point is though that police provides services that Blacks don't. Nobody has been comparing them and the GGP pointed out the bigotry of the statement "the police perpetuates crime".

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#245

Post by thaumasiotes »

jessaustin wrote: post #218
thaumasiotes wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When police were created, it was largely for basically racist purposes, even if the "races" under consideration in many locales were "Irish" and "Italian". Ok, but I think this is a reflection of different races falling en masse into different social classes. If you're in Italy and your city has natives, gypsies, african laborers, jews, and persian merchants (note: stylized example, not necessarily reflective of an…

Umm, "treating different races differently" is kind of the definition of racism. But think it through further, please. Why do different races fall into different classes? There is more than one reason! For your average racist fuck, the answer is "because race". But TPTB are not all, nor even primarily, average racist fucks. Like "race", "class" is an invention that allows elites to control and extract rent from the r…

At this point, you've defended the existence of racism, but you've abandoned the idea that there's something wrong with it.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#246

Post by rorykoehler »

jensen123 wrote: post #206
Frondo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of police are corrupt, and there is an absolute ton of racism in this country so we believe it when the cop tells a lie that implicates a black guy. Not racist like we're out in klan hoods on the weekend, and it's definitely not like we're consciously choosing to be racist--this is just lifetimes of unexamined biases, media information, etc. We have these little biases that tell us not to trust the black guy's…

I guess you are correct that there is a lot of racism here and there. However, there is also a lot of rabid anti-racism. For example, you'll never read an article in the mainstream press about how blacks, on average, have lower IQs than white people, although this clearly is relevant in the whole crime debate. Why are blacks more likely to commit crimes than whites? The IQ explains a lot, but mentioning it is taboo,…

I think there is another good book like that. It's called Mein Kampf or something. Can't remember who wrote it.

Another fun factoid. IQ isn't static and is a fairly useless measure of intelligence.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#247

Post by simoncion »

jMyles wrote: post #238
simoncion wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I'm saying is that fabrication of testimony and planting of evidence aren't the same thing. Correct. Planting of evidence is more difficult and more unlikely than fabrication of testimony. Fabrication of testimony is lying about the facts of a matter. Planting of evidence is lying about the facts of a matter in addition to leaving physical traces that corroborate your lies. > But in order to have this assembly…

I agree in full with everything you have said. Where I'm a little lost is how you project this into a future where drug prohibition (and other consensual "crime") doesn't exist. So, sure, you have a few gnarly guys who will perjur themselves for you - but what do you accuse people of? What is the crime that replaces drug possession? Without victims, you can't really make this work...?

> What is the crime that replaces drug possession?

Theft.

(As I've explicitly mentioned at least once. :) )

Other possibilities: False statements to authorities. Possession of a (loaded or unloaded) pistol in the cab of your vehicle, without possession of a pistol permit. Trespass. Assault. Traffic violations. (And then arrest for failure to appear for the same, or jail for failure to be able to pay the fines for the same.) Parole violations. (Here's where evidence planting gets you back to the quick path to jail time.)

You've gotta understand. The criminals who were running this scheme were dedicated. There are a wide variety of crimes that could be used for a relatively quick frame-up.

When you know that the DA isn't gonna closely examine your case, you know that IA isn't going to expose your scheme, and you're fairly certain that the folks you're targeting can't mount an effective defense, you get to do all sorts of things that reasonable people would expect to be impossible.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#248

Post by simoncion »

datashovel wrote: post #241
simoncion wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I'm not sure that I agree with your judgement of the significance of those events. 2) Doesn't it stand to reason that papers that are more significant than those that were previously published are almost certain to be published, given that papers of lesser importance were published?

I wouldn't argue that the events weren't significant. They almost certainly captured just as many headlines as the Snowden leaks have. I'm mostly making a comparison between the information that was leaked. Stakes are higher when there's more significant information to be published, so I would say it's not necessarily obvious to me that more significant information is more likely to be published.

Perhaps it will bring you clarity to understand that the first place this information was published was The Guardian. [0] It's a British newspaper that circulates physical papers, in addition to its Internet publication.

It's possible that in this day and age no US papers would have picked up the story, limiting its impact in the US. However, a story this large and important would have been picked up in the 1970's, just as the Pentagon Papers and other such stories were.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#249

Post by jMyles »

simoncion wrote: post #247
jMyles wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in full with everything you have said. Where I'm a little lost is how you project this into a future where drug prohibition (and other consensual "crime") doesn't exist. So, sure, you have a few gnarly guys who will perjur themselves for you - but what do you accuse people of? What is the crime that replaces drug possession? Without victims, you can't really make this work...?

> What is the crime that replaces drug possession? Theft. (As I've explicitly mentioned at least once. :) ) Other possibilities: False statements to authorities. Possession of a (loaded or unloaded) pistol in the cab of your vehicle, without possession of a pistol permit. Trespass. Assault. Traffic violations. (And then arrest for failure to appear for the same, or jail for failure to be able to pay the fines for the…

What will this person have stolen? To whom will it belong? Someone will have to claim to be the victim.

I guess still, we're talking past each other.

We need to repeal laws against every one of those offenses except assault and theft (which will require a victim to come forward, again returning to my initial question).

My assertion (and one that I think it quite clearly backed up by the evidence in history on the matter) is that these victimless crimes are created precisely to target (typically racial) groups.

I don't view the unethical law and the racist enforcement as two different things, but as parts of the same motion.

Re: Leaked Documents Reveal Police Department Planted Drugs for Years, DA Complicit

#250

Post by prawn »

purpled_haze wrote: post #219
ionised wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you dismiss that much of the moral and ethics we have today in our society evolved in parallel with religious teachings? Yes. Much of our morality and ethics are innate and stem from our nature and evolution as a social species. Religion just took credit for it. Even social groups of monkeys and rodents tend to avoid killing eachother and do what is in the best interests of the group.

> Much of our morality and ethics are innate and stem from our nature and evolution as a social species. Where is your evidence for this? It would seem more evident to me that the source I am aware of through my education in history and life experience for teaching of morals and ethics has been religion. Although many here may not be old enough to realize it, countries that are mostly secular not long ago historicall…

Like your ruthless monkeys, someone could point to countless proclaimed adherents in jail or advocating bloodthirsty war or abusing children or embezzling community funds.

Are there any important religious teachings that wouldn't be taught in a secular ethics class?

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